Israel: Terrorist State or Holy Land? A contriversial topic to say the least. Sorry if I've offended anyone but these are my views.

[Mark Mentzer]

I consider myself somewhat of a strange bird. I'm a Jew who feels that the land called Israel (previously called Palestine) has natives who have brown skin. In 1948 England gave Israel to the European Jews who suffered atrocities under the Nazi regime. That was a nice thing to do but what about the natives of the land? After WWII there was a rapid disappearance of French and British influence throughout the Arab world, as the rapid eclipse of the old imperial powers transformed the politics not only of Asia but of the Middle East and Africa as well. The mandated territories granted by the League of Nations after World War I were granted independence. These included Syria and Jordan in 1946 and Lebanon in 1943. The mandate in Palestine was liquidated, and a Jewish homeland -- promised after World War I but never granted -- was created in 1948: the State of Israel.

Israel has since been, in my opinion, a war mongering state and has been the cause of much unrest in the area. Since I find the bible to be a book filled with fables particularly the Old Testament, I don't recognize the "Biblical Right" to this land.

I feel that Israel has no right to this land as I see it as ethnic cleansing plain and simple. They should have the land however, they've now been there a long time so I support Obama's decision to set a fair border and recognize two states.

What's your feelings on the subject?

[Mark Mentzer]

Sorry Toby, People asked me to re-open it. I did request civility. But the people who asked me to re-open it are both intelligent and considerate. I, unfortunately lost a very good friend from putting up this post but I can only do so much and I refused to delete the discussion altogether. Quite frankly I don't have the time or inclination to read each and every post. If this was my job I would but I need to hustle to make dough so I need to trust people to be civil. I tried to moderate between three people who were duking it out but this, so far, hasn't happened.

[Mark Mentzer]

I guess I can't provide peace here can I? Kumbaya boys and girls, kumbaya.

[Mark Mentzer]

Thank you Jacquin for your intelligent comments.

[Mark Mentzer]

Hi Kat, I reopened the discussion because Cindy and Lynda were being quite childish sending me threatening emails and such. I tried to moderate a discussion between Cindy, LyndaAndLab and Pacis Dream. And it didn't work. Indeed it was met with a sarcastic and threatening letter from Lynda. Quite frankly, the only civil one in this case was Pacis Dream. But the main reason I reopened it was because Vernon Windsor and Barbara Hershey asked me to reopen it and since I was met with threats and sarcasm from Lynda and Cindy. I opened it up. Vernon is a great writer and quite intelligent and educated. Barbara is the president of her hadasah and agrees with me on the subject. It is for these reasons that I reopened the discussion. I think with Cindy and Lynda out of the discussion we can have an intelligent discussion. Thank you, Mark

[Mark Mentzer]

Cindy, Lynda threatened, as did you to report me to the powers that be for not moderating a fight between you, lynda and pacis dream. I tried and it was met with sarcasm and threats by lynda. But you do threaten me about this thread in a personal email as did lynda. so yes, i was threatened. All the emails were tantamount to harassment. So who should be threatening to the powers that be. You are all guilty of flaming and I wish would own up to it. But there were some other very intelligent who wanted it reopen. I sent out a group message and the first post said "Keep it Civil".

[Dazzling Zoomer Gal Diana]

Mark, with respect to all, and as a group leader myself, sometimes being the leader means it is NOT a democracy. Perhaps an oligarchy at best. There comes a time when you as group leader must make a decision and the best you can do is state why you have made the decision, and let it stand, and close the discussion.

Tensions can mount quickly in even the most gentle of group venues, never mind a political venue. People will pull on you from all sides with their personal agendas and emotional reactions, which can cloud the finest of minds.

It's your group. You are in command. I suggest that you back away - review the discussion with as much objectivity as you can muster, and decide accordingly.

I also - if I may, suggest that you establish FIRM guidelines, and appoint at least two or three other moderators/administrators that are of like mind and are willing to work within your guidelines with you - so that there is someone who can speak in your place, to a good degree, in your absence. As Vernon is also on the tbd.ning coalition team, perhaps he could be one of your appointed admin. people.

You have a considerable sized group. Gosh - I have 140 or so women - and I have three moderators, and MysticalMaria officialy on board to boot - ahem - no pun intended!!! 140 strong willed women - I'd be nuts not to have assistance!

Just a thought for you Mark. There is no shame in closing down a thread, or deleting it and starting afresh. It's all a learning curve. For everyone. Please forgive my intrusion and interruption. It is meant with the most heartfelt comradery and good fellowship to all.

[Mark Mentzer]

I didn't want to close the discussion to begin with. I then got advice to try to moderate between the three of them. That did not work out and indeed I received numerous emails in my personal box insisting so I caved in to that. But then I got emails from Vernon Windsor and Barbara Hershey who is a hadassah president at her synagogue. Like me, she is afraid to talk with fellow Jews about this topic. And believe me that most young Israeli's agree with my point of view. So for them I reopened the debate asking everyone to please keep it civil. I will never censor a post I wrote by deleting it. Indeed I'm sorry I closed it to begin with. NEVER.

[Dazzling Zoomer Gal Diana]

I hear you Mark. Thanks for responding. I (personally) would never delete a discussion either, but others who posted have done this in my group thus negating all those who posted regardless of their input.

Sometimes - closing a discussion can sometimes be the better side of valour. It's not my suggestion, but I must say - it's so convoluted now - I'd be very hesitant to enter here, and I want to - but there is no place to come in with a peaceful and studied intent.

Perhaps another time.
Namaste.

[Mark Mentzer]

Thank you jacquin for your encouraging words. :-D

[Grace Linda]

There seems to be confusion about what debate is. If one makes claims and then is asked to provide proof, or is shown that their comments are flawed or not backed up with reality that is not a personal attack. Sometime when we have emotions invested in a subject we take things personally. This has been my observation of this thread. As adults I guess we need to ask ourselves whether we are going to actually have debates or just state our opinions and then make slurs against people who oppose us.

I believe there are plenty of places on here for opinion, the blogs, forums or on your own page. But this is called a discussion. I believe.

[Mark Mentzer]

Thank you Grace Linda, After all that is the exact reason I created the No Flamers logo.

[Mark Mentzer]

Barry, I DID NOT start any kind of fight with your wife she started fights with me by sending me harassing emails. I will not listen to your DEMAND. Cindy said a few days ago that she was quitting TBD and I've heard more from her since then than I ever had before. I also tried to set up a talk between Cindy, Lynda and Pacis only to receive more hate messages from Cindy and Lynda. I've been more than fair. I closed the discussion until I started receiving harassing emails. I reopened it on behalf of 2 other members whom are very reasonable and very intelligent. Tell your wife to stop sending me harassing emails and there will be no more comments about her.