Israel: Terrorist State or Holy Land? A contriversial topic to say the least. Sorry if I've offended anyone but these are my views.

[Mark Mentzer]

I consider myself somewhat of a strange bird. I'm a Jew who feels that the land called Israel (previously called Palestine) has natives who have brown skin. In 1948 England gave Israel to the European Jews who suffered atrocities under the Nazi regime. That was a nice thing to do but what about the natives of the land? After WWII there was a rapid disappearance of French and British influence throughout the Arab world, as the rapid eclipse of the old imperial powers transformed the politics not only of Asia but of the Middle East and Africa as well. The mandated territories granted by the League of Nations after World War I were granted independence. These included Syria and Jordan in 1946 and Lebanon in 1943. The mandate in Palestine was liquidated, and a Jewish homeland -- promised after World War I but never granted -- was created in 1948: the State of Israel.

Israel has since been, in my opinion, a war mongering state and has been the cause of much unrest in the area. Since I find the bible to be a book filled with fables particularly the Old Testament, I don't recognize the "Biblical Right" to this land.

I feel that Israel has no right to this land as I see it as ethnic cleansing plain and simple. They should have the land however, they've now been there a long time so I support Obama's decision to set a fair border and recognize two states.

What's your feelings on the subject?

[Mark Mentzer]

Hi Gang, What an interesting topic I brought up here. I was in a controversial mood. I would like to apologize to the friends who feel I was stating that Israel was a terrorist state in the headline. This was not my intention. I do not feel that Israel is a terrorist state. Although, they have not always responded favorably to terrorist offensives. I would especially like to thank LyndaAndLab for her very insightful responses. I learned a lot from that. Everybody else keep putting in your two cents. Mark

[Vernon Windsor]

If terror is being perpetrated upon you, the state that is responsible for the terror is a terrorist state. This included the United States. I don't have a problem with a Jewish state, although any group or state that claims the God is on their side deserves extra scrutiny. I have, over the years, been both disheartened and optimistic with respect to peace. I do think the Palestinian people deserve to have a state of their own and to be compensated for the forced removal from their homes.

I realize that Israel has occupied a precarious position with respect to its neighbors and certainly is justified in defending itself, but I believe it is also true that Israel has done itself and the peace process enormous damage by its often disproportionate responses to real and perceived threats. I have to ask how long do you think any people will allow themselves to be kicked around before they take action, even if they know the odds aren't in their favor? I know there must be people in Israel who value and want to work toward peace, but when Palestinian children throw rocks and the Israeli army responds with bullets, the resultant perception is hard to avoid. I realize the attacks on Israel now are very severe and my heart sickens when I hear news of violence and deaths on either side, but it is my perception (and it may be wrong, but it hasn't changed despite years of new coverage) that Israel nurtured the conditions which gave rise to the extreme Hamas position and attitude that so effectively blocks forward movement. Many opportunities for breakthroughs have been squandered on both sides of this conflict. But again, I have to ask, if it is your access to water that is being restricted, your house bulldozed, your orchard destroyed, how long do you expect people to put up with such treatment? It takes a great deal of motivation or cause for mothers of any group to encourage their sons and daughters to become suicide bombers. I have watched both the Palestinians and the Israelis scuttle the very near possibility for peace many times. This cycle has given rise to extremists on both sides. The Israeli settlements in the occupied territories and the intransigence of the government on the settlement issue are ample proof of the governments unwillingness to actively pursue meaningful peacemaking gestures. The good and reasonable people on both sides are drowned out by the hardliners. Anyone with honestly peaceful intentions either fails to enlist enough support or falls to assassination. What does this tell about the will of the people? Is the United States heading down that same road?

I am not a scholar of the region. There are, no doubt, many things I do not know. I'm just saying what I think. I have longed for many years to see peace in the region and to hear the voices of those Israelis and Palestinians who are ready for peace to come and willing to sacrifice something to make it happen. I pray for both peoples, but I can't help seeing Israel as powerful and the Palestinians as weak. I can't help but see an analogy in treatment between the Palestinians and American blacks. Both the Palestinians and Israelis are entrenched and determined. Both sides hold the solution within their grasp.

Lastly, I feel the need to restate my first sentence. If terror is being perpetrated upon you, the state that is responsible for the terror is a terrorist state.

p.s. Bomb onto others as you would have them bomb onto you.

[cyndromeda]

well said vernon! ;)

[Vernon Windsor]

Then with the death of Arafat, there should have been yet another opportunity for serious progress, yet what happened?

You do not understand that I want to create a comparison between Palestinians and American Blacks, because I do not. I'm simply saying any group of people, Israelis included, who are continually mistreated because they belong to that group are sooner or later going to resist or fight back. If throwing stones is the only option, they will throw stones. If self-immolation is the only option, they will self-immolate. If throwing yourself overboard and drowning is preferable to being wrenched from your home and sold into bondage, you will throw yourself over and drown. My question is how long do you or anyone expect people to put up with such treatment?

I don't believe the United States can force the parties to compromise, that would be playing into the arrogance portion of our country's perpetual "Ignorance and Arrogance" approach to foreign policy. I do believe we can play a significant role in keeping the parties talking constructively and showing a more even handed approach to the region.

[Vernon Windsor]

I find this back and forth to be disturbing, but for those of us far away from the region, the reports, documentaries and news stories are what we have to form our perceptions on. We get contradictory facts from each side of the issue and are forced to listen to both our Jewish friends and our Arab friends. We are trying to find the truth about the prospects for peace and what obstacles stand in the way of that effort. Cindy and Lynda, I have no desire to minimize the struggle of the Jews in Israel, nor negate the risks and danger they face, but it sure looks sometimes like old fashioned racism to me...that and xenophobia. You say we don't understand, but we're trying to understand. I've seen video of the carnage of suicide bombers in Israel, but I've also seen many videos like these...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ky31nEuwCY4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCWnCd4u37A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EL3lhRBfAg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQDKmrBPI00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0A20qGuVWo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3iHtoAg6cc

[Mark Mentzer]

This is not about the Jews who live in Israel. It's about the right wing hate and fear mongering government. And, believe me most young Israeli's agree with what I've stated.

[Vernon Windsor]

Lynda,
I can appreciate this is a very emotional issue for you and many others, and I can't pretend to be able to see this from a Jewish perspective, but that is not what I'm talking about in the first place. Although some people do, I do not assume the actions of the United States government are necessarily in accord with the thinking of its people. The same for Israel. I have not and do not condone terrorism in any form, by anyone. Nor do I harbor any ill feelings toward Jews. I have been a member of the Southern Poverty Law Center for many years, and greatly admire the work that Morris Dees has done through that organization. All of which, is beside the point. There is much to admire in what Israel has been able to do, despite the challenges it faces, but that does not mean that Israel and the Israeli government should not be scrutinized or even criticized when its actions warrant.

I am very aware of the often close relationship between Jews and Blacks in any parts of the country. I know the story of "The Coops," a cooperative apartment complex built in the Bronx by Jewish garment workers, and how they welcomed black families when few other apartment complexes would have them. But the fact that you bring this up seems to indicate that you feel I'm attacking Jews. I'm not. I'm questioning the tactics and policies of the Israeli government in so much as they deal with Palestinians as a people—as people. You can't get me to the point of seeing every Palestinian child (or Arab) as a evil death merchant waiting to mature enough to carry a bomber's vest, any more than I would see every Israeli child (or Jew) as a religious zealot eagerly looking forward to killing any Arab-looking person that ventures within sight of his illegally founded settlement.

Do you see all Palestinians as evil and set upon the destruction of Israel? I'm phenotypically black, but I despise both the black men who attacked truck driver, Reginald Denny, and Supreme Court justice, Clarence Thomas, for the damage they do to the country and to black people in particular. It was not a Palestinian who assassinated Yitzhak Rabin. Yigal Amir was a right-wing religious Zionist who was strenuously opposed Rabin's peace initiative and particularly the signing of the Oslo Accords. Are you going to tell me there are no others in Israel who think the same way he did? Are those people banned from military service in the Israeli armed forces?

If the Palestinians voted for Hamas, that is unfortunate for the ease of a potential peace movement, but it also democracy. If Israelis voted for Netenyahu, that is unfortunate for the ease of a potential peace movement, but it also democracy. Yet peace is still possible in each case. Is it easy? Probably not. Is it worth trying for? I would think it would be. If a bomb or rocket falls on you (or your neighbor, friend, lover, family), you are still dead, no matter where it came from, who paid for it, or who gave the order to launch the delivery device. This was the point of my post.

To vilify one's enemy is standard operating procedure during war, but to perpetuate that notion through generations ensures that all will continue to know the anxiety and fear you describe so well. I maintain, if by nothing other than the law of averages, that there are Palestinians and Israelis who are ready for peace and further, peaceful co-existence. To whatever extent those people can communicate and relate to each other, that is the measure of hope for the future. To whatever extent other people resist that happening, is the measure of fear, racism or both that condemns future generations to the loop of war, attacks, and reprisals.

[P.A.]

Very well put Vernon

[Vernon Windsor]

Given the proximity of the "o" and the "i," I think it was just a typo, George. We are smart enough to interpret and translate. But hey, thanks for the observation.

[Mark Mentzer]

Sorry George. I am usually an impeccable speller. After re-reading it it POPS out as a misspelling.

[Mark Mentzer]

The two people who asked me to re-open the conversation were not the two people you think it was. I won't mention any names but take my word on that.

[Mark Mentzer]

This discussion is now officially re-opened. Feel free to put your two cents in but please keep it civil. — Admin