American Dream

[Wayne Goodwin]

Do we still have The American Dream ?

If so then it takes Much Longer ?

I believe the Illegals have an advanced start to The American Dream ....

What say Ye ?

[Mickchick]

I'm living MY American Dream.  I retired at 62, moved to my 1 BR condo in Jax Beach (albeit the mortgage is so under water I call my condo The Poseidin Adventure), I've got my health (cancer in remission for 10 years now, spinal stenosis under control, and no symptoms from prior lacunar stroke).I've got my dog, I've got friends, I enjoy my life and I'm thankful every day for what I have.

[Lifesighs]

I think the illegals are having a hard time of it still, they work hard but now as many are leaving as coming here, Mexico has had the biggest expansion of middle class in the last few years while the US has a shrinking middle class. 

It is harder to have the dream because of higher education costs, jobs sent overseas and plain greed of corporations like oil companies who keep gas prices high. I feel for the younger people but they have to fight their own battles like we fought ours. It may dawn on them that they will have to involve themselves in the process and think about what the politicians are trying to do, mostly the right seems to want to dismantle what was built and worked for this country.

I lived my dream and am grateful for a nice fulfilling life, I'm disappointed in the direction this country is headed but It's not my fight at this point in time.

[ProblemAgain]

please explain why "the Illegals have an advanced start to The American Dream"..

[Wayne Goodwin]

Like Mr Reagan said "Here You Go Again" . I don't feel i owe you an answer to that . Get back to ya when i can .....

[ProblemAgain]

i am simply asking what you meant. what is their advanced start to the american dream? did you mean that in reference to american citizens or to other immigrants or? we can't understand what your point is if you don't explain it

[frenchy]

well down here in florida other than the tourist industry which is the big thing on the coasts , is the agricultural industry , and thats big business down here too .. and because of the warm weather we can grow some things year round .. i'm not sure if you get the commercials for the orange juice with the guys out there in the grove sayin good mornin bob , good mornin tom ,to each other as they move around crates of oranges and they say we own the groves and we pick the oranges ourselves and then they cut to a guy grabbin all the way in the back on the supermarket shelf and there's a hand from the grove givin him a carton of orange juice .. they're tryin to give you the idea that these guys do it all , but the truth of the matter is its 95 degrees down here most everyday in the summer and bob and tom are in their air conditioned trucks watchin jose and juan and pepe pick the oranges and crate em up .. so are juan and jose and pepe livin the american dream ?? ehh.. i don't think so , or at least not in the sense that most of us believe it to be .. they had to sneak across the border and probably had to pay a shitload of money to do it .. and then they had to find a job doin the one thing nobody really bothers to check all that hard .. pickin oranges or tomatos , or watermelons , or whatever is in season at the time .. out there in the sun all day .. and they get paid for what they pick , not by the hour so it can work out to be less than minimum wage .. they have social security cards but i'd bet that 90% of them won't collect a dime of it cause they'll never be here long enough to retire here as a citizen .. if the numbers they estimate are right , ( somewhere around 11 million , could be more tho ) thats a lot of illegals  payin into social security with no return to them .. most of em have 2 or 3 or more forms of i.d. and none of it matches who they really are .. so why do we let them in and let them stay ?? cause if they wanted to crack down on this they could .. i have a theory .. i think its bob and tom .. and all the other farm owners who say look , i've got a bumper crop of oranges out there that need to be picked , if you ship all these illegals back who's gonna pick em all ?? you think some citizens are gonna come down here and pick oranges or tomatos or peppers for 4.23 an hour ?? right now it costs about 3 bucks for a gallon of orange juice .. are you ready to pay 13 dollars a gallon for it ?? cause you will if you ship these guys back .. so they let juan and pepe and jose stay .. till they get a little slower than the rest , or they get a little mouthy and demand more money and the next thing ya know , juan and pepe and jose are back on the bus goin back .. we got 7 or 8 good years outta em and back they went .. no problem we'll just get a new pepe, juan, and jose .. and it starts all over again .. yeah a few of em find a way to learn the language and maybe even marry a resident or find some way to get legit .. but most never do .. and i think its setup that way on purpose .. its just a newer form of slave labor .. we don't ever call it that but it is .. and did pepe and juan or jose ever make any trouble when they were here ?? oh hell no .. they were model citizens cause the last thing they ever wanted was to be picked up for anything.. some people would bitch that they were takin our jobs and i'd ask em so.. you wanna pick tomatos for 3.18 cents an hour ?? of course they'd say no .. so then i'd ask em do you wanna pay 12 bucks for 4 tomatos ?? again of course not they'd say .. well then be quiet cause if they send em back thats whats gonna happen .. so , the american dream ?? i guess its all dependent on where you're standin at the time and your perspective ..  

[Mickchick]

In north Georgia, the illegal immigrants worked in the chicken plants doing jobs that no one else would do no matter what the pay was because of the smell - it permeated everything and on a day when the wind was blowing your way ... pheewww!  I wouldn't say they never caused any trouble, but usually the fights they got into were with other illegals, once in a while they'd get a DUI or hit someone when they were driving, but not too often.  As Frenchy said, they didn't want to draw attention to themselves so they were pretty careful.  I'm not crazy about paying taxes to cover their medical expenses/educating their kids, etc., but as Frenchy says, there's a reason that it's being allowed to happen...

[ProblemAgain]

it isn't always simple at all....the common complaint is that they don't pay taxes. but  when they get paid, if they get paid by check, they get paid minus withholdings. the odds are they don't file a tax return to get that money back because they don't want the scrutiny. there have been a number of cases where the employees work and when they return to pick up their paychecks, they are told that they never worked there. who are they going to complain to? or just before payday, the owner notifies the ins and the entire crew gets picked up.....bingo free labor since they are no longer around to pay. as far as medical care, it's supposed to be the employer providing when they are working but of course these are illegals....they don't have any rights...guess that's their head start on the american dream oh and if the kids were born in the usa, they are citizens and have the right to go to public school...

[Shadowman]

If by "illegals" one means people that have enterred the country without the proper papers, I would say they have the least advantaged start. They have to avoid any conspicuous public interaction, seldom have any safety net, and need to avoid any authorities, and often have a language disadvantage. And because of the risk and threat of being caught they are especially vulnerable to abuse and manipulation. In my area as in others they do the work others are reluctant to do despite Tea Party claims that they are stealing jobs. It is mainly agricultural, construction, and some food service that they are employed. 

And it may be an assumption that there is just one "American Dream." For some it may be just being able to live or have a family without fear of one's own government or police, or owning a home, whereas, for others it may be the dream of finding the ideal scapegoats for why their life ended up in the toilet. 

[Wayne Goodwin]

Truth is i really don't know how to answer Problem's question asked of me . Maybe i should have said Do You , instead of I believe '.

We had two Mexican's that came to work where i worked . Yes they had Social Security cards but they paid 25 hundred dollars for them on the street's of Charlotte NC . They worked almost everyday . Carried the limit of kids on their taxes . When paid only FICA and maybe a few dollars taken out for taxes . No File taxes . If cracked down on them they just skip across the border . Wait a few month and it starts all over again . New cards New Id ....

[Snagg]

Look at it this way, Wayne: Are you in favor of putting only junkies in jail, and not the drug dealers themselves ?

[Wayne Goodwin]

No I'm not in favor .....