so now for some opinions .this is a tough one so be nice

[frenchy]

i've been watchin the news lately and it seems the boy scouts have stirred up a bunch of trouble .. and this is a complex issue .. it seems they're not very gay friendly and that has some gay people feelin left out .. after all they're people too with feelins like the rest of us why can't they be boyscouts ?? but then you have the other side .. the religious side which feels like it goes against the grain of all their religious teachings .. and a lot of the boyscouts have their foundations in some kind of church .. be it mormon or catholic or baptist or whatever .. the boyscouts could always count on the religious community for a place to gather and to help fundraise .. and if they have to accept gay people they no longer will because they feel like their religious beliefs are bein compromised .. the churches say if you want to have a gay boyscouts start your own boyscouts but it won't be a part of the boyscouts we have now and they won't help fund it .. i could say whats wrong with don't ask don't tell but then it gives gay kiddie didlers a place to blend in and we end up with guys like sandusky or catholic priests .. so on the one hand if a guy is gay and in the scouts and my kid was involved i'd wanna know about it beforehand ..i'm not sayin i wouldn't let him join .. i'd just wanna know .. i'm not dumb enough to think that you could make a kid gay if he's exposed to it but i do think it is way way wrong to even try .. i think its a bit different if you're in the armed service because by that point you know which way you swing and you're an adult so you can make up your own mind .. but at 12 and 14 uh uh .. so i don't really have an answer for this because i don't like to discriminate .. but i don't think its a decision that a kid should have to make .. anybody else have any views on this .. lets try to be nice tho ok cause this one is touchy .. we all have opinions and thats fine .. so lets let everyone express theirs without bein judgemental ok.. 

[crestofwaves]

OK.  One more procrastination before I go out to snow blow.  I struggle with this as well.  At school we have a group called Lesbian, Gay, Straight alliance.  It's so good for the kids who are really gay.  But so many kids are confused at this point in their lives, that sometimes I struggle with the concept. 

Gay kids need a place to go.  I wish things weren't so vocal.  Just allow everyone to do whatever and I think it would work better.  Accept people for who they are instead of making bogey men out of them because we don't understand them.  Gay people aren't pedophiles.  Only 7% of the population are, so I'm assuming 7% of the gay population suffers with this as well..  Even within the Church.  All priests aren't pedophiles.  Seven percent are, just like in the regular population. 

First, it's necessary to dispel the concept that pedophilia and being gay go together.  I also think we have to stop fearing that gay people will turn straight people gay.  I could never ever in a million years be turned.  Then, I think everyone should just shut up about sexuality when dealing with kids.  They're not supposed to be having sex anyway.

[0qbw0p9940ht5]

This is a hard one for me because when I was first separated from my ex-husband, I signed my son up for a "Big Brother."  At first, he seemed like a very nice man and I'd let him take my son to places like the arcade at the mall, the movies, etc.  Then he asked if my son could go with him and another boy he was "big brothering," to the beach.  It was an overnight trip. This is back in the early 80's.  My son came home and was very non-talkative about his trip.  It took a while, but finally he told me that the man had made advances to him. 

That SOB is just lucky I didn't have a gun at that time.  That ended the whole "Big Brother" experience.

So, how do I feel about gays in the Boy Scouts?  Just like heterosexuals, there's deviants everywhere and you just have to be a hands-on parent and make sure your kids know that they can tell you anything. I don't see a problem with a gay man, who wants to make a difference in a kid's life, being a Scout Leader.  As long as they don't make advances at the child and are committed to what the Boy Scouts stand for, I think it could be a good thing.  

[Lucinda Stone]

jeezum crow, i cannot stand when folks have to pontificate their views upon others! be it politics, religion or anything... we all have our own thoughts and beliefs and for sure there are differences but people/groups should quit being so damn judgemental... like crest said, gays and pedo's aren't one and the same'

i think you/they can be/believe anything you want, just don't impose it on me and mine, we can make our decisions thank you.

[Lifesighs]

I really think the boy scouts are worried about pedophiles which is not the same as gay, the young boys probably don't know yet if they're gay or not. The issue is more about the leaders of the troop rather than the members. The boys will be hanging together with their friends. I do think the Boy Scouts are doing a stupid thing, they should be finding a way to weed out pedophile leaders.

The religions that are against gays are also a problem for me, it's like being against red hair, some people are born gay and nothing is going to change that. What needs to evolve is the thinking of the religious leaders. I would not have any part of a religion with those beliefs, that's just the way I roll. It's totally hypocritical.

[Karin M Fichtner]

Can I interject some of my goofy humor into this? 

I have known many gay guys in my 66 years, and not one of them thas been into hunting, fishing, camping, woodcarving, building campfires, or a lot of the other things scouting is involved in.  The older scouts....not the little guys. But my dad was a Cub Scout leader and they went camping, hiking, climbing, camp-fire cooking, Native American crafts and culture, working with wood.....you know.....guy things.  Even at that tender age.  I just can't help wondering.....if my kid belongs to a scout troop run by a gay man......does he get badges in interior decorating, or hair styling, fashion or maybe French cooking?  ;-)

Seriously, I agree with French.  I want to know if my kid's scout leader is gay. But I don't necessarily disapprove.  If I am not happy with the way the troop is functioning, I have the right to take my kid out and find another troop for him to belong to.  That would be the case no matter who the leader is. 

As for religions.....if I have to be tolerant of the Taliban in Afghanistan beheading women......I guess I can be tolerant of Southern Baptists taking the words in Leviticus to heart.  My daughter's Girl Scout troop wasn't connected to any church. Let the scout leaders find a venue more agreeable to their lifestyles.  I'm sure they can be found.  Come to think of it.....my own Brownie troop when I was a kid met in the school cafeteria after school.  What's wrong with that?  If you can't change the doctrines of these religions.......make it work without their cooperation.

[blithe spirit]

As a kid and an adult I was part of the scouting movement...along with my brothers and my parents. My parents liked it for the connections we were able to make...we moved around a lot when we were growing up it served as a stability factor...something familar to us.

When we moved to FL...I know the little town we lived in had just disbanded the scouting programs because there were no willing adults to talk over the integrated troops...so we all helped that to happen. No churches involved...the local ones refused. It's really not part of the scouting tradition to be exclusionary or to discriminate. 

There are some troops affiliated with churches that have issues with inclusion for Gays like they did racial integration. It didn't work for them back then..it still doesn't. Some of these so called family values groups are actually hate groups...they really have no interest in promoting the values of scouting. People seem so isolated sometimes these days. Too much unnecessary fear, and too much ignorance. We need more inclusion, not less. I think scouting still serves a legitimate purpose in communities and I hope it survives.

[ProblemAgain]

(insert Sarcasm font here)..gee guess this all goes to show you...keep them gays out in case they are pedophiles and keep them where they belong....in the churches and families, by gar....where they was intended to be.....(end Sarcasm font here)...

and once again....gay does not mean pedophiles...there are pedophiles who molest boys ..there are pedophiles who molest girls..and there are equal opportunity pedophiles who molest either sex..and they can also be uncle jim or aunt blabby...they can be scout leaders...or church youth ministers...or guidance counselors...or carwash employees....or maybe your friendly local mechanic..it's best to stop thinking in stereotypes if you really want to protect kids from chester the molester

[frenchy]

well havin been a boyscout i had first hand experience with a scout leader who was gay and a pedophile .. he never messed with me but he did with some of the other guys so i was the one who put that pedophile thing in there cause i saw that first hand .. i do agree that they come in all flavors and colors and all walks of life .. my only comment was what better place to be a pedophile than the boyscouts or big brothers or a priest with a couple of alter boys .. again i never meant that all scout leaders or big brothers or priests were pedophiles so if you thought i did i apologize for that .. what i was tryin to say if i can put it a different way is askin religious leaders who do support scoutin to accept gays is like askin hacedic jews to eat bacon .. i'm not sayin right or wrong .. i'm just sayin this is a complex issue because they feel that their religious rights are bein threatened .. and america the home of the free and land of the brave was founded on the right to worship god in the manner you choose .. even if you think god is a piece of lint in your pocket its your right to build a church dedicated to it .. i'd think you were kinda nutty and probably wanna call the cookie truck for you but .. if they said no no he's sane i'd have to say go ahead.. all i was sayin was the churches would have the right to pull their support for somethin that flies in the face of what they believe .. and the reason i say this is if we let the gov. dictate what we have to religious observe or not observe then religion and the freedom of it is in trouble .. i can usually come up with some kinda compromise for most things but this one has valid points on both sides .. don't ask don't tell seems like the best solution because its really nobodies business what you or i do sexually but on the other hand gay people want the right to be gay out in the open free from oppression .. and they should have that .. eeeeeeeeeee.. 

[Karin M Fichtner]

Tolerance is a funny thing, French.  What it means to one person, is not necessarily what it means to another.  For a lot of people....and groups.....tolerance is what they want you to have in order to accept them......but not what they expect to have in order to be accepting of you.  There are a lot of people out there who have all sorts of beliefs....religious and otherwise.  (this applies to politics, as well)  We all like to get on our pulpit and preach about how everyone needs to be more accepting and tolerant; and if you don't agree......then they're right and you're wrong.  Wait a minute......doesn't tolerance mean there is no "right" and "wrong"?.....just "different"?  Why must we be so darned determined to convert everyone to our own personal belief structure? So I'm a Christian......so what?  So my son is an atheist.....so what?  He doesn't begrudge me my beliefs, and I don't begrudge his.  Sometimes, he gets "preachy" and gives me what I like to call "The Gospel According To David".  I listen.  Sometimes I ask questions.  Then I change the subject.  I'm not going to argue with him; I'm not going to change his opinion; he's not going to change mine.  Who cares?  He doesn't call me narrow-minded and bigoted......and I don't tell him he's going to rot in Hell.  For one thing.....neither would be true.  I may be a Christian.....but I have no hatred for people of other religions, races, or sexual orientation (or politics, for that matter).  I understand there may be a place in scouting for gays......but I also understand a person's religion is very personal and very deeply felt.  To deny them the right to their convictions is ....strictly speaking for myself..... just as narrow-minded as denying the gays their right to be gay.  Like you said, French.....if a man wishes to worship a peanut butter and jelly sandwich......it's his unalienable right to do so.  So, rather than rale against the churches who disagree.....simply find another place to have your meetings.  Scouting is not a religious organization; it does not require the church's sanction.   

[T2Friends]

well said.

[T2Friends]

 am not a member nor have I ever been a member of a scouting organization, so I don't know much about the Boy Scouts except what I have heard.  I think the whole thing is unfortunate. A part of me believes that private organizations should have the right to include and exclude whom they want.  There is a private club located in front of my house in RI. They own the building at the end of this peninsula out in the Sakonnet River.  The club members are all men, it is a sportsmen's club.  They go on hunting and fishing expeditions and I suppose sit around and have beer and coffee and discuss their excursions.  Women are only allowed as guest of the men, they can not be members.  It doesn't bother me, but I wonder how I would feel if my husband (if I had one) wanted to be a member of a club that would exclude his best friend?  (of course I would be my husbands best friend if I had one, lol).  Again, as an adult, I might think well, they just want to hang out together, without their women folk and do what men do with out having to worry about cussing and swearing and talking dirty (not that I was ever offended by ANY of that but whatever).  I wouldn't ever think it was because they don't like women or that they think there is something wrong with women or that women aren't good enough to be in their club...I wouldn't ever think that, I am an adult after all.  But if I were a little boy who wanted to join the boy scouts, cuss my best buddy from next door was joining the boy scouts, but they won't let me join because I have two dads or because I am a bit effeminate the the boy scout leader thinks I might be gay then I might start to think there is something wrong with me, down deep, under the brave face I put on after my dads try to explain it to me.   Or maybe as a little boy I am in the boy scouts, and I really love all that the organization stands for, I learn all the skills and take their motto to heart and achieve the highest honor of Eagle Scout, but then they find out that I am gay and tell me, sorry you can't be an eagle scout, we won't bestow our highest honor on you because you love men and not women.  What does that have to do with scouting, how does that boys sexual feelings even enter into it.  So, intellectually I guess I think that private organizations have the right to exclude some folks, if they so choose.  But when it comes to kids, that doesn't really cut it for me.  An organization that supports the concepts of self reliance and strength and honor, why wouldn't or shouldn't all children be able to participate in that.   The pedophile thing is a bit of a red herring.  Of course you don't want pedophiles being scout leaders.  But excluding gays from participating in the organization doesn't do anything to stop that or screen for that.  As you noted Frenchy.

[Karin M Fichtner]

Exactimundo!