Where have all the real men gone?

[Dazzling Zoomer Gal Diana]

Where have all the real men gone?
"Top American columnist Kathleen Parker is causing a furore with her new (n.b.the following article is dated Aug. 8/08) book Save the Males, in which she argues that feminism has neutered men and deprived them of their noble, protective role in society."

Do you think we have "neutered our men" in Western Society by our collective demands that they become more sensitive and sensitized to our way of thinking about things? Do men need saving? Are we weaning the characteristics of nobility, courage, protectiveness and more out of our young men? This is an interesting and provocative article, and I've been itching to discuss this issue for some time - without the male point of view (as much as I love and appreciate it ) getting in the way.

09/04/09: An addendum: As I mention in the discussion - this is just an example - Parker is not the issue - the subject is the issue. PLEASE address the issues more - and the Parker person less. Also - just so we are 100% clear - I'm not a fan of hers just because I posted this article. Objectivity, please! This is an issue that is being raised by men with ever increasing frequency. The question begs to be answered - why?

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/b...

[Quilty]

I whole-heartedly agree that this generation of women is emasculating men.

Some reasons I've seen in My World: the high divorce rate, forcing women to be the Hunters AND the Gatherers. The absence of men in our children's lives -- few fathers around to teach a little girl what it's like to be cherished, and to teach young men to be strong.

We (the tail end of the Baby Boomer mothers) are raising a generation of boys without fathers. Our sons go off to the military, to college, to work, never having had a positive, strong role model like OUR fathers were. And a generation of men who don't know how to parent.

Yes, we teach our sons to cook, to sew on their own buttons, to wash and iron their own clothes, both because they are necessary Life Skills and because we don't have the time our mothers had to do it for them. We are working full-time, too. Or part time. Whatever it takes to put food on the table.

WE teach them to TALK to us. A luxury our mothers never had with our fathers. (And our fathers never had either.) We teach them to show their feelings, because it's what WE know.

I am my own favorite misogynst. I shout long and hard at women who send me male-bashing emails under the guise of "jokes." Women in groups these days horrify me at how quickly the talk turns to "what the stupid male did last." I have left many a group or lunch or club because it disintegrated into just another venue to bash men.

I don't see this male-bashing as any different from hateful jabs at any ethnic group. Since when did "male" join the ranks of words like "kike" or "wop" or "polock" or "nigger"??

[Chez moi]

This discussion is indeed simmering along nicely... some tasty bits that we can get our teeth into... we may not change anything, but perhaps we'll understand some of it better in the long run.

There is much that I will need to reread and cogitate. I have never been a parent, so I am not in the mode of thinking about the effect of these changes on the next generation(s) (I must add, since some of you could be my children). In any case it is a long slow process, and will not be decided by us overnight. It is worth takin the time to understand better, to see more of the aspects of it.

On with the cuisine!

[Dazzling Zoomer Gal Diana]

Thank you Chez. One thing is for sure, as many extraordinary strides as there have been - for both men and women 'or the past 40 years, the playing field is still FAR from equal, and as we move forward with our children and grandchildren, it's important that we all have our ear to the ground as we listen to the next two generations, and as they listen to us.

What we have to say still matters, but we will not be listened to if we don't in turn listen, very closely, with as open mind as possible.

[belle054]

Neutered our men?? Omg.....now this? This sounds to me like someone's effort to split the ranks once again. Everything's always a stereotype. I've known real men for a long time who cried at sad, sappy movies and men who were not interested in watching sports. I grew up with a father who loved to cook....his specialty was crepes and he was about as macho as they came. I think difference is an important word.....men are very versatile just as women are....you cannot clump all men into one type of definition. The differences are wonderful and interesting just as the differences are between them and us.

[Maricel Evasco]

My son thinks I am 'feminizing' him by encouraging him to be a nurse. I personally think he would be suited for the position. He is nurturing, likes to help people, and is interested in general health. As a mother interested in my child's future, I want to help my son set realistic goals. My son is a sports fanatic. His passion for competing sometimes overshadows his academic discipline. His grades are mediocre especially when compared to his sister. Yet, I have no reservations about allowing him to continue w/football, baseball, MMA, etc because they are positive outlets and good for his health and self esteem. I imagine he dreams about being in the NFL or competing in the Vegas MMA (Mixed martial Arts) tournaments, but I know those dreams are just that "dreams." I will not discourage him from pursuing those dreams, but I want him to have a steady job to ground him. I suggested that he consider nursing ( 2 yr degree) or become a Health/Phys Ed (Gym) teacher. He is amenable with doing the latter and balks at the former even though the starting salary for nurses in NYC is $65k and many nurses make $100K w/overtime and the work schedule is extremely flexible. He could own his own gym if he wanted to.

I'll bet if you were to suggest the same thing to most men nowadays, the majority response would be the same as my son. There are certain jobs that seem to emasculate men. Nursing is one of them. Funny thing is a colleague of mine at my school says that in her 22 yrs of working as an ob/gyn MD, her favorite nurses were mostly male.

My daughter on the other hand would probably make a formidable trial lawyer. I'm encouraging her to aim high. I don't think she has any gender insecurities because she grew up in household of very strong women.

[Quilty]

That is so sad that your son's opinion of nurses is so skewed.

If this helps... the most compassionate, down-to-earth, truly helpful nurses I've run into (with five kids, we've spent our share of time in ERs and several psych visits) have ALL been men. The two who stand out the most were a pediatric nurse and an ER/psych nurse.

The pediatric nurse was the guy on duty when I spent the night with my preemie twins (on the regular floor) before they were discharged to go home. He answered my questions more completely and honestly than the female nurses, and never once left me feeling like I was "bothering" him -- which the female nurses did.

The psych nurse was in the ER the night I had to take my (bipolar) daughter in to be admitted for an evaluation and meds update. She was not the only one in the psych waiting room, but she was the only one treated with dignity. HER nurse was male. The other patients were assigned to females, who CLEARLY had better things to do than to deal with the psych patients. (The wait from walk-in to psych bed was EIGHT HOURS. Did I mention she's also ADD??)

[Maricel Evasco]

Quilty,
I'm just giving my son 'advice,' but he doesn't seem to keen on nursing. My brother told me yesterday I better have my head examined if I think my son is going to be a nurse. verbatim: "Sports players NEVER think of nursing as a career. You are buggin' " Maybe he'll change his mind in a few years, but I'm not banking on it.

Thanks for sharing your experiences with male nurses.

[Quilty]

There's always physical therapy. "Sports Medicine" has become its one specialty, and those doctors' offices (and hospital orthopedic wings) are crawling with physical therapists. I have a (male) friend who's in PT Aide school right now (a two-yr assoociate degree). He's only halfway through the course and already getting job offers.

Because I'm so heavy, I could only work with the big strong male PTs after I broke my hip. Thank goodness for them!

[Dazzling Zoomer Gal Diana]

Peter James has made such a fuss about not being able to post in my group that I think it's time to revive this discussion.

The bashing I'm taking about our banning him is quite interesting considering that not one man has yet to voice any opposition to our group prior to him being excluded .

A point to consider is our new and valued member "This & That" who is concerned that men are being marginalized - she has two sons who I'm sure as she has indicated to me are not having an easy time of it.

However - a man relentlessly brow beating women (in this case me) about a group (ours) whereby we discuss feminine issues - reminds me of the subject of misogyny - as it is a form of intimidation and abuse. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny

Do the women of my group wish to invite men? If so - why? Is my excluding men discrimination? Or is it just a call as one would take about any group one forms on the Internet ? In the bead and jewellery group I've mentioned that I was accepted in - people who are not creating jewellery are not accepted !
So what is the deal with Mr. James? Let's talk.

[Suuse]

Dazz--you know I love you. I hope you do. And my respect for you knows no bounds. I admire your tact, your diplomacy and your wellspring of kindness for pretty much everyone. But, there are times when I'd like to fwap you--this as regards Mr.James, who proclaims, on his home page, that he is "Born to irritate....sometimes". I don't negotiate with terrorists (or toddlers) and I decline, as graciously as the situation allows, to suffer fools--and so I offer you this jewel from Dorothy Parker: "With the crown of thorns I wear, why should I worry about a little prick like you?"

Mr. James is, apparently, one of those wanna-be "bad boys" who thrives on attention...and since respect and admiration require a certain amount of character, he's learned to cultivate negative attention. My mother would have called him a "shit disturber" and moved on.

Or, to borrow from a wise woman I know: "NEXT!"

As for the underlying issue of this forum being "For Women Only"? Pleasing everyone is, de facto, an impossibility. You were clear from the get-go that this forum was closed to men. Done. Dusted. Discussion over. If you feel you may have erred, by all means start another forum for women and men. I'll post there as the spirit moves me, as may Mr. James. But bullying you about this group's "orientation" just proves the point that this forum should remain FWO.

Now...as re T&T's view that men are being marginalized here? I haven't seen it. They're welcome to speak for themselves in a co-ed forum, but until they--or any man--can cogently, lucidly and accurately discuss things like the fit of a bra or the best way to deal with PMS or cramps, I don't see that they have any place here.

In return, I promise not to wander into an all-men's forum and offer, unsolicited, my "wisdom" on blue balls, power ties, or PSA tests.

[Dazzling Zoomer Gal Diana]

Try this link. http://save-the-males.blogspot.com/

I liked this topic - mind it got quite heated and one of our members departed. I hang out with my step-kids (now a man and a woman - 24 and 26 respectively) and their chums when I'm in T.O. and although they are both in long term and stable relationships, many of their friends are not. The gals are very pragmatic, relatively unromantic, and pretty confident and aggressive when they want something. I came of age in the seventies, that small window of time where freedom was not just another word, so I'm almost impossible to shock, but many of these gals are so jaded and hard nosed. Good families and excellent education and sweethearts, but their view of the guys is hard nosed and pragmatic. They rove in packs, and so do the guys, and temporary "hook ups" is the name of the game. At least in the seventies, there was still some romance!

My step-son and his group tell me getting girls is so easy they don't have to put any effort into dating, although they are realistic to expect that this will change somewhat if they are still single 10 years or so hence. It's the same old story - guys go fro the lass who is the most unobtainable. Then they really work at it, and value the time spent and the woman more.

[Mother Sanity (JackieRodzinski)]

Aye, they were never any here in the first place.