Proof beyond doubt

[base2final]

Do you remember the President saying "if you like your health care plan you can keep your health care plan.........PERIOD  If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor.......PERIOD  ALL the time when you say period, there is no more. That's the sum total......period.

Well now the President is saying that that's not what he said. Don't believe you lying ears and don't believe your lying eyes. He said what he said was  you can keep it if it hasn't changed since the law passed. OOPS NO HE DIDN'T. It's a lie. The audio and the video prove it. This man is so dishonest that even when he is on film he will lie to us about it. 

This is proof beyond a doubt, So what else has he lied to us about? Benghazi? Fast and Furious> The NSA spying? The IRS targeting certain groups? The FBI going after the AP and James Rosen?

http://www.examiner.com/article/obama-denies-saying-you-can-keep-yo...

 

[ProblemAgain]

i disagree with your conclusions. in fact a short time ago a fact checking between republicans and democrats found that republican claims were false 60 per cent of the time versus 32 per cent for democrats. in an ideal universe, we wouldn't have to deal with this crap but we don't live in an ideal universe and unfortunately some political figures seem to have flunked their used car salesman ethics test. i do think it tells us something about how the electorate is viewed by political figure who blatantly lies to us.

 oh and has it ever dawned on anyone that even if the promise was made by obama about keeping your health insurance and keeping your doctor that the insurance company has to apply for that policy to be grandfathered in (and some simply cancel that class of policies since they fail to meet the new market standards which the insurance company doesn't want you to tumble to...rather they prefer to blame obama)..and your doctor has the option of not accepting insurance. indeed there are some doctors lately who have gone to patients having to be all cash

[A4L]

That is perfectly fine for you to disagree with my conclusions. That is why you are going to bring information to the discussion that I may not have heard other places, and even if it is not all correct the likelihood is that some of it will be, and I am saying the same for information that I might bring.

I think your points about the doctors and the insurance that you mentioned here certainly are plausible and most likely are happening, but it doesn't mean in every instance, and the question still gets down to where is it true and where is it not and what is true and what is not.

It's a lot like a divorce. According to the husband, the wife cheats and wastes money and doesn't care for the children. And the wife says the husband is a drunk and a cheapskate and smells bad.

The fact is that the divorcees have vested interests and in like manner the parties and political/special interests do as well.

We are the jury.

What is clear to me is that in order to let the innocents free and to lock up the bad guys or girls, we need the truth and all of the facts that we can muster from both sides. Just like when you say that insurance companies are finding loopholes to make more money while many consumers become victims, it takes all of these insights to help form a reasonably factual picture.

The president has interests as well here. He actually said something to the effect that the website problems "burned" him (a pretty telling remark) And the republicans also have an interest in showing problems with the ACA.First off, they didn't vote for it.

These are very subjective participants that are players and the information venues are not free and clear of their own interests as well. A statistic says this. And another group gives a statistic that says that.

It's all so entrenched with subjectivity that takes away from the objectivity.

I am willing to admit that there is much more that I don't know than I do know. But just like science that is ever evolving, you go with the best info that you have at the moment recognizing that we are learning more as we go.

[LoveLife&Laughter]

Can I remind my friend a jury supposedly has an open mind and not a preconceived conclusion regardless of evidence?  As much as you are a very decent sort and mean well, I don't want you on my jury, an innocent man could get hung.

[A4L]

Thanks for the compliment! I very much doubt that I would find myself wanting to hang an innocent man.

If anything, on a personal level I am an extreme liberal. I have a hard time saying no, I tend to want to hold out hope longer than most (that I know) and believe that forgiving others is my key to salvation.

Politically I am more conservative. But my main push here has been to say lets all be open minded! At least enough to hear each other.

I try to express what I find good about my perspective, and I try not to be harsh to people personally. The site I used to talk politics on was mostly one- sided conservative, and when non conservatives expressed their opinion they were usually berated a bit. I did not enter into that. I just thought that it was counter productive. I tried to have discussions with those I disagreed with and questioned their conclusions.

Usually I got silence on the other side. "

Here I need not worry about that.

And it helps me. You and Problem have done much to give logical reasons for your perspectives.

That would not have been shared on the other blog.

Who here has no preconceived ideas? I have ideas based on my past experiences and thinking about ideas that I hear.  Everything that I think I know I am open to considering whether it makes sense.

My bent on the politics is from watching and hearing the same direction with very little wavering. Bigger government being the answer, spending more, raising taxes. Where are we substantively going in a different direction (as a whole)?

I want your side to get it's exposure to all on the right.

If I could have my way we would be days and weeks and months into "Discovery."

If I believe the right more than the left, does that make me unopened minded? If I believed the left more than the right would I then automatically be open minded?

[LoveLife&Laughter]

That's what I can't understand Ben, how can you possibly believe the right when most of the time their talking points are proved to be lies?  I consider myself neither a Lefty nor a Righty, if you read all my posts you'll notice that.  Why I seem to support the Left is I do not like being lied to, it's the Right that mostly does that -- as a few of us have proven time and time again to you and base2final.

What I do understand is that an activist, Left of Right, will never change their mind, they can't do it.  I can and do, therefore I am not an activist.

[A4L]

I support you in your honest reactions. When you say you don't like being lied to, I am absolutely pro that principal.

I am here learning.

Maybe at some point my conclusions will match yours more. But I see a whole lot of lying on the other side too, or attempts to obfuscate and divert. Both sides do it.


Again the best I think we can do is to try to get to the bottom of things.

Don't you have Tea Party type friends or neighbors that are nice people that you know but disagree with for the most part?

If we have no preconceived ideas then whether it is a left source or a right source the most important thing is to decipher what things are.


The insight that problem gave about insurance companies raising rates on their own not due to the ACA is very relevant and valuable. These things are happening on both sides.

ANyway have a great day!

Got to go now. Wish I had more time.

[Snagg]

Base, do you just sit around all day, getting indignant about crap that an hour on the internet - Other than your teabagger sites - Would prove to be lies and deliberate information, served up by people who see you as nothing but a gullible sucker and an easy mark ?

Do you ADMIRE yourself for being so easily led around by the nose ?

After you've sucked all the right-wing propaganda down without even chewing a bite of it,  can you not think of one better thing to do than to scurry in here and puke it all back up ?

Is that what you do all day ? Is that what you call a LIFE ?

[Snagg]

For base - Not that he could actually comprehend this:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/11/10/1254596/-Another-Health-In...

Sun Nov 10, 2013 at 01:12 PM PST

Another Health Insurer Caught Falsely Cancelling Thousands of Healt...

by VyanFollow

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Following the report that Insurer Humana was fined $65,000 in Kentucky for sending out 6,500 misleading cancellation letters for low-premiums plans only to be automatic re-enrollment in high cost plans before these customers were given a chance to shop on the open exchange for a better and cheaper plan - we now have a new report that Anthem Blue Cross is being sued for tricking people into dropping their "grandfathered" plans.

Think that's bad, well this is even worse.

http://thinkprogress.org/...

“Blue Cross successfully enticed tens of thousands of its individual policyholders to switch out of their grandfathered health plans and forever lose their protected grandfathered status,” states the lawsuit. “Blue Cross concealed information about the consequences of switching plans and intentionally misled its policyholders to encourage the replacement of grandfathered policies.”

And more... http://www.ibtimes.com/...

The lawsuits, filed Monday in Superior Court, may signal an emerging customer pushback against the approximately 900,000 cancellations in California alone of individual health insurance policies that will take effect Dec. 31.

900,00 Cancellations.  False Cancellations of plans that, which under the Affordable Care Act are "Grandfathered" and Don't Need to be Cancelled.  The Insurance Companies are doing it to Scam their Customers into higher cost plans and away from the ACA Exchanges in a practice that violates State Law known as "Twisting".

The plaintiffs, Paul Simon, 39, and Catherine Corker, 63, of California say that they are among the customers that Anthem Blue Cross pressured to drop their grandfathered policies in 2011 without giving them all the facts about new Obamacare requirements that could raise the price of their plans in an effort to cut its own costs. Simon and Corker would have preferred to remain on the grandfathered plans permitted by the law, and are now asking the courts to block Anthem from canceling any more policies unless the company allows consumers to switch back into their grandfathered plans.

“This is about an insurance company manipulating the situation and concealing the facts,” said William Shernoff, an attorney for both the plaintiffs, in an interview with the Los Angeles Times. “We are asking the court to give our clients and everybody else in the same situation the option of going back to their grandfathered policies.”

These lawsuits may take some time to work their way through the court system, but what can work even more quickly is the CA State Insurance Commission and also the Court of public opinion.  Just like in Kentucky the CA Commission has the ability and power to Restore These Improperly Cancelled Plans and get customers back the "Plan they Prefer" if that's what they truly want.

Perhaps if a few (thousand) of the customers who received letters claiming their "grandfathered" plan was cancelled were to contact that commissioners office, there might be some action on this faster rather than later.

http://www.insurance.ca.gov/...

California Department of Insurance
Consumer Services Division
300 South Spring Street, South Tower
Los Angeles, CA 90013

California Department of Insurance
Fraud Division
9342 Tech Center Drive, Suite 100
Sacramento, CA 95826
[e-mail]

800-927-HELP (4357)

I'm just saying...perhaps the President isn't the one who should apologizing for these Cancellations, the Insurerers Should be.

Vyan

[A4L]

Your post is valid. Good to see more of the picture! Obviously the trials haven't taken place, but getting out this information helps to slow down this stuff!