Worse than we thought, and getting worse!!!

[base2final]

Some in this group try to be supportive and blindly defend the ACA, even in the face of growing problems. Well here's a little more evidence that what is becoming factual is not what we were all told. My feeling is that if a few spokes in the wheel were broken, than why try to fix the entire wheel? Why not be honest with the American people unless of course that being honest would have stopped this law from being passed?

The left can try and deflect blame to the Republicans, but this law is 100% Democrat. Remember when Scott Brown was elected to the Senate from one of the most liberal states with the purpose of voting against the ACA? Harry Reid changed the number of yes votes needed to pass the law from 60 Senators to 50. Remember the Louisiana purchase? Remember the back room promises? Remember the total number of Republican yes votes?

Maybe the far left progressives in this group who are trying to defend this debacle know more than the majority of the Americans who from day one have been against this law. My guess is that they don't. They just don't have the balls to admit when something their party did is going bas. Can you imagine for one second the outcry if Bush had forced this on the country?

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_HEALTH_OVERHAUL_YOURE_CAN...

[ProblemAgain]

"The facts are that the representatives were elected to represent the will of the people. The democrats won the presidency. They also won the Senate. The republicans won the house"

The FACTS are the bill passed BOTH Houses of Congress and was signed by the President. The FACT is it was taken to the Supreme court and was declared CONSTITUTIONAL. ERGO IT IS THE LAW OF THE LAND.

[A4L]

Gravity is a fact.

And so are airplanes.

Your facts are in fact accurate.

Another fact that exists is that a different House exists now that does not support this direction and it was elected by a majority of people that do not support this direction. And this happens all of the time. Every two years different people are elected, and they represent the voters. It is not always good, because there are still so many gaps, but it is

A FACT.........

[ProblemAgain]

that does not negate the fact that the aca is a law. if the election of new representatives negated the laws passed by previous sessions of congress, we would have to begin all over every 2 years to build america again. and if the aca was disliked so much by a majority of the population, i would venture to say that a bill would be introduced to repeal the law. but there has been no bill passed to repeal the aca. therefore it exists as a law even tho there have been 44 votes to defund the aca and 44 losses of the votes to defund the aca. therefore the majority of the constituents of the representatives want the aca to remain.

[A4L]

"i would venture to say that a bill would be introduced to repeal the law."-Problem 

I thought that the house has passed bills to defund the ACA a number of times. Nothing passes in the Senate and that is what we expect.

So in fact it seems we have no disagreement. You say it's the law of the land and I agree. But I am saying that people that don't like it can try to do their best to vote for something else. That is all that I am saying. It seems like a lot of people are complaining because those that want it changed are still trying to do what they can. It is not illegal nor inappropriate. Frustrating, yes? I will grant you that. I am frustrated as well just because it does seem almost pointless, but as my Dad told me, if you believe in something you should stand up for it.

Again, I am very happy having some of these discussions here. Because I do learn from so many of you. And I am trying to have the discussions that are hard to have because usually no one wants to try and just listen to the other side of ones position without getting riled.

So thanks once again!

I see you as being very kind in trying to address my thoughts!!!

:0)

[LoveLife&Laughter]

Did they?  I'm not sure.

The Rs lost seats in the House in 2012.  They didn't lose the House because of Gerrymandering.

We also should include the voter suppression in all "Republican" controlled states...

Should we really be congratulating Republicans for a job well done?  To me this type of politics is very similar to Nazi Politics and how Hitler became Der Fuehrer.

[Ioruach]

What about this question, base2: What specifically should a wealthy, modern, civilized, 21st century nation do with respect to health care for its citizens?

[LoveLife&Laughter]

According to what I have read and heard from the right side of the aisle have not tried once to improve American healthcare over an antiquated for-profit system that's priority is insurance corporations benefits and not the American Public.  The ACA is the first attempt at fixing a system that has reduced our healthcare system to one of the worst in the world, and the most expensive.  If not fixed by something like Obamacare, the country would no longer be able to afford the old system.  QED

Yet we keep getting people who claim they don't understand what the problem is.  Supposedly.  It's hard for me to believe any normal person is so anti-socialism that they are blind to seeing where used carefully it is a good thing.  And I still say, social insurance is not socialism in the political sense.

[ProblemAgain]

in actuality, the business of healthcare, the business of eldercare and many other aspects of life have become nothing more than the business of insurance. and what a big business! that's why there is such resistance to change. how many lobbyists are up there on capitol hill (capital hill is the more apropo name) pouring money into campaign chests to sway votes to keep things the way they have been or even loosen them up 'to let business do what it does best' which in reality is to pour money into the pockets of the corporations and their minions. an example....max baucus had 3 million dollars poured into his war chest by the insurance lobby during the struggle to draft and pass the healthcare legislation. think about that....one senator...3 million bucks...is it any wonder that there WAS NOT a single payer system passed? the insurance companies would have had to go back to fleecing you on home, auto and life insurance without the deep pools of profit from refusing medical care. as it is they aren't the happy campers but their grief is assuaged with the security of knowing they will be able to screw everyone in the country in the future rather than just some of the people. be that as it may, at least it is a start in the direction envisioned by teddy roosevelt in 1912.

[A4L]

Wow.

I am way with you on the messed up lobbying - government comingling!!!

Can't we all agree that this has got to stop?

[A4L]

"If not fixed by something like Obamacare, the country would no longer be able to afford the old system.  QED"-LLL

Good point LLL. Makes sense even to me.

"And I still say, social insurance is not socialism in the political sense."-LLL I never heard that term before.

Let me just say that the same kingdom could have completely different governing realities under two very different kings.

In other words, what you said does make sense, but what I don't have a clue about is where we are going. "used carefully"- LLL Yes, I may agree, but where does this assurance come from?

What are the limitations on government today? What can I have assurance of? I feel more and more that it is hard to find any black and white that I can depend on. Almost everyday I hear of something that makes no sense.

My daughter who you met and her boyfriend bought a used truck over two months ago, to use in hopes of pulling a trailer for a business that they want to put together. When the boyfriend was at the dealer he test drove the truck, he noted that it had some issue with a belt and looked like it was leaking water, and the AC had an issue. The salesman assured him, "We will take care of that."

He trusted that was what he would get. He signed paperwork, and proceeded with their processing people. Gets the truck home, and the check engine light is on. He brings it back the next day, and pays them to do some work to the interior and to fix the problems they were promised. They give it back to him saying it is fixed. But guess what, it was not fixed. I hear about this stuff that gets carried on for almost a week, and said take it to my friend that is a mechanic and see what he thinks., The water pump is leaking, the belt on there was the wrong belt, and whatever else he found. Now they are back at the Mitsubishi dealer with their used Ford F250 diesel truck that they have put almost $25K into and the they are being told nothing is wrong, my friend gets on the phone with the service manager and tells him exactly what the problems are. They take the truck back again and again give it back to the kids with the problems unaddressed. They take it to Ford to diagnose it. Ah, after market parts. Replace that first for $1200.00 and then we can run it on the scope, but can't do it as is. Oh, and btw, one battery is dead and the other is going to go because the the voltage is wrong, with the message, "Don't drive it!"

Now back to Mr. BS, let's see the sales manager. He comes, and says to the kids, why you didn't sign a paper that would have protected you. You were lucky we even looked at the vehicle. Sorry.

Now it's to the BAR. another week or so and the truck is tested by the BAR. Gee, it can't pass smog and it was sold with after market parts in violation of certain vehicle codes. Eventually the the dealer after being contacted by the BAR takes the truck back to inspect it at another facility. They argue about what is wrong, but even the BAR guy can't be fooled by them cause he knows what the problems are. They damage the truck while they have it there, and then deny that it happened at their facility.

Here we are two months or so since purchase. My future son in law is paying for a truck that he does not possess, and can't drive. Their business has not started, he got flipped over by a hit and run driver two weeks ago and lost a few teeth (a couple of grand to fix), because he was on his bike since he didn't have a vehicle to drive. They have talked to a lawyer, but they were turned down, I am guessing cause not enough damages to make it worthwhile. They are still waiting to see what the dealer will offer them, but at least now they got their old car fixed so he can drive something to work.

This is just the unending maze of Bull shit even with so many government regulations in place. I say all of this because I can't help but believe that even most of us with completely opposite political views would see this as an unjust situation and I think most of us can go back and remember a time when there was a little more simple way of figuring out right and wrong. There have always been bad apples, but this is a whole corporate entity skirting the law and not giving a shit about what disgusting business practices they follow. And my kids who just would like their money back are ready to cave and take almost any kind of deal just to get it over with, cause even though they know that they have not done anything wrong even with tons of government regs. they feel like they likely can win nothing by fighting for the truth and for what is right.

I am trying to say that this humungous government is not more user friendly by growing to manage so many more things but actually less so. At least to me. I feel that there are wonderful government workers that do a great job and surely some do not.

I am for the little guy. But you tell me the the bigger government is the answer, and I don't trust it to be so. Not with politics being the major currency of Washington, nor with trying to make laws that are supposed to apply so universally to over 300 million people by a system that can not show me any large degree of accountability and definition of purpose and intent.

I absolutely think that most of the people here are sincere and wanting to make things a better place, but as I keep saying I only trust what I can verify, and that is more based on logic than on studies and statistics. So I have all of the old school notions that sound appealing to me. And you say a little socialism is good if cooked at the proper temperature. And I may find that in some instances I agree with you, but I see the government as being the most powerful guns that I know, and I want to see them guns registered and background checks and people with mental histories kept at a reasonable distance from those triggers. The government seems less accountable.

I see hope in what I believe the Tea Party to be. I only see it as focusing on our Constitution and Declaration of Independence and Federalists papers, and widening the historical knowledge of what made this great country and it's founding unique. Limited government. Huge emphasis on individual rights and freedoms. A government system designed to have many checks and balances. It's not perfect but it' has it's valuable elements. And for this beauty that I see and hope in I am supposed to be harangued?  

I am suppose to be the major enemy of the union?  I am an extremist?

You have every right to disagree with things that you think are wrong, and I am thirsty to hear your arguments.

But these relentless attacks on people, your fellow citizens, by association and not in deed or action of any kind? I find to be a chain of nothingness.

I relate to your sincere expressions of common sense and care for people. And it does not in the least make me feel a need to find fault with you.


But what I feel is that my like minded brothers and sisters need a voice!

And I want to have these discussions of philosophy and ideologies meeting together and seeing what good can come of them.

I have to agree that we live in a modern world now. That is truly a fact, and one to be embraced. But it does not mean that all that has been learned throughout history is invalid and useless.

Problem said that Communism doesn't work cause human nature has proved that.

Well that is much of the basis of what I think. Human nature is according to the Bible evil. And what does life teach us? Are we not selfish until we deny our own wishes to help others? Is it not deeds and actions that help create the kind of character that we all find admirable. It is natural to be selfish. I am not being judgmental, just noting what my own experience has indeed taught me. 

And that is one of the ever constant themes in the mind of John Adams who fought the revolution and worked and labored so hard to help create a new nation among others with checks and balances to the end that human's natural tendencies to amass ourselves ever more power would be held in check.

The Constitution is still the law of the land. It is the one thing sworn an oath to by our elected officials.
This seems logical as a starting place for legislation. And primary and essential.

We want health care to be affordable. I have no reason to say that is not a good goal. But how do we get there? By this political football game to push ever so hard until we can win, because we feel that it is so important? Maybe I am too skeptical of socialistic ideas and goals. But it might not be the socialism, but who is wielding it.

I am for pushing hard, but pushing hard for all to be heard. For the ramifications of things that we are to do to be known or at least considered, Not to be lectured to like my wishes or thoughts are not of any interest to the ones empowered to make laws.

I don't care where we end up as to whether or not we come to agree on all things, but I so would love it if we could enrich ourselves with enlightening ideas and fill the posts with knowledge. And I think that many of you do just that.

I know I talk in a scattered bunch of machinations like a Gatling gun. I am sorry, but before some of these recent interchanges I felt like I was left completely out. Not wanting to be offensive, but just wanting to see if my inclinations could be formulated somehow here and integrated into the discussions.

Don't know what to say. Just hope that somehow the flow of what is inside me is possibly seen as more of a fellow sojourner and not as some kind of intruder.

I am open to hearing your thoughts and happy for them to dominate.


Peace to all of you....

[ProblemAgain]

i'm sorry for what happened to your daughter and her boyfriend but i don't see the govt's being at fault in this. they bought a used car from a slick glib oily salesfuck with promises rather than written stipulations on the condition of the vehicle. they didn't take it to your friend, the independent mechanic, and spend a small amount of money to get the condition of the truck determined before they bought it. you didn't mention if the truck came with a warranty. since they refuse to fix it, it would seem they bought it as is which may or may not be legal depending upon the laws in your state. (some states require a car dealer to provide a warranty), have you contacted the actual owner or the general manager of the dealership? have you contacted mitsubishi? car dealers in general hate bad publicity and reporters LOVE a good juicy story about the nasty car dealer fleecing little molly and hector out of their milk money. often the dealer will try to resolve the situation to avoid bad press because all it takes is a few stories in the paper to 1) cause people to stay away from the dealership and 2) cause other people to come TO the dealership such as investigative reporters, govt agencies anxious to prove they are doing their jobs, and other various and sundry pains in the ass people that the dealer doesn't want to see at all. why in some cases it could get a general manager fired by an owner who has a multimillion dollar investment ion his business and doesn't want it to go tits up. in addition a car company doesn't want a bad dealer to ruin the reputation of their brand. hey worse comes to worse, a sandwich board and some paint and a parade on the sidewalk in front of the dealer and some tv reporters with cameras is highly effective

 here's the key to their situation:
"Now it's to the BAR. another week or so and the truck is tested by the BAR. Gee, it can't pass smog and it was sold with after market parts in violation of certain vehicle codes." a case could be made that the dealership knowingly violated those codes and therefore the sale is a void contract because they violated the codes. in cases like that, thejudge usually throws the sale out and restores both parties to the condition they were in before the sale, i.e. the dealer gets his truck back, the kids get their money back and the paperwork is stamped void.

the trouble tho is expecting the government to preprotect you from the bad guys. rules, laws and regulations  are in place first as guidelines as to what is legal and permissible and the unfortunate thing is we don't need those with most people but we do with nefarious louts whether it is a person or a corporation. remember laws don't get enforced on people who adhere to them...they are used to charge people who don't with violations of the law and provide a deterrent to those who would violate the law by punishing those who do. it isn't perfect but it is the best we have.

i've said it before..the teaparty is an astroturf movement funded by corporate interests. thus the calls for less govt and so forth. it fits their agenda. go do a little more research about some of the leading lights of the teaparty...it turns out most of the heroes are at best ankledeep in the trough and seeking to wade in deeper. it is a very selfinterested, narcissistic movement and has overtones of the past in its plea to 'real americans' as well as a tendency to oversimplify questions and to not embrace the whole truth but rather a halfbaked recipe of just the facts that fit the agenda even if they aren't true.

[A4L]

Hey Problem,

I started reading your reply and then my wife got home and I got kids I was dealing with along with my 96 year old mom who is going out tomorrow with the caregiver, and is planning it out like it's a wedding (just saying she had me running around here back and forth looking for her old jewelry like a yo yo, but it is all good). So I am just getting back to finish reading what you wrote and I saw your IM, but saw that you are off now.

Just want to thank you so much for what you said, and your thoughtfulness in trying to help. Absolutely was great! I like the way you write and think. I am sure that I would enjoy your company.

They have met with the general manager and just as you have said, they finally got some where because of the efforts of the fellow at the BAR. My understanding is that as a result of this big ridiculous mess they may be investigating the whole inventory of used vehicles at that dealership.

The good good news is that today after over two months, the company finally put an offer in writing to fix everything and also give them a year warranty on the parts they put in (like I said after some pressure was put on them). The boyfriend told me he asked also about the AC, that wasn't working and was supposed to be fixed? The fellow told them that because of the system problem it was probably affecting the AC and that once it is fixed it should be fine and if not they will fix it. So the question came up as to why the first line of people hadn't told them this, and the reply was that the first line of people are presently getting an enlargement process to their plumbing. :0)

I told him to be sure to get everything in writing.

Really appreciate your super helpful input!!!

May I just say,

"Thanks!"