Israel: Terrorist State or Holy Land? A contriversial topic to say the least. Sorry if I've offended anyone but these are my views.

[Mark Mentzer]

I consider myself somewhat of a strange bird. I'm a Jew who feels that the land called Israel (previously called Palestine) has natives who have brown skin. In 1948 England gave Israel to the European Jews who suffered atrocities under the Nazi regime. That was a nice thing to do but what about the natives of the land? After WWII there was a rapid disappearance of French and British influence throughout the Arab world, as the rapid eclipse of the old imperial powers transformed the politics not only of Asia but of the Middle East and Africa as well. The mandated territories granted by the League of Nations after World War I were granted independence. These included Syria and Jordan in 1946 and Lebanon in 1943. The mandate in Palestine was liquidated, and a Jewish homeland -- promised after World War I but never granted -- was created in 1948: the State of Israel.

Israel has since been, in my opinion, a war mongering state and has been the cause of much unrest in the area. Since I find the bible to be a book filled with fables particularly the Old Testament, I don't recognize the "Biblical Right" to this land.

I feel that Israel has no right to this land as I see it as ethnic cleansing plain and simple. They should have the land however, they've now been there a long time so I support Obama's decision to set a fair border and recognize two states.

What's your feelings on the subject?

[Vernon Windsor]

Oh Lord...no good deed goes unpunished. Let own up to my part in all of this. I recognized the benefit of this topic and receiving multiple perspectives from different people on it. I have been friends with Lynda, Cindy, and Mark. I recognized Pacis Dream from his posts on the old site. I respect the considered comments of all these people. I knew that feeling were bruised and had hoped that, as adults, the parties could come together and agree to continue to address the topic without the vitriol of personal attacks.

I had been in contact through PM with everyone except Pacis, because I felt like I didn't have a personal rapport with him. I also knew that, with emotions running high, my words might well be mis-characterized. I therefore documented and archive all my communication with each of these people. It was my idea that Mark, as the moderator, try to bridge the differences between the parties. As I learned valuable information from each of them, I was reluctant to simply censor the thread outright, although I did appreciate that everyone needed to cool off a bit. I did not, as Mark states, ask that that he reopen the thread. That decision was up to him. I did express my sorrow in losing the opportunity to discuss the subject with these people. I did not "take sides" with one person over another.

In the interest of clarity, If I need to post my messages to Mark or anyone else, I can certainly do that. This whole thing could have been avoided by the judicious use of common sense by any of the parties involved. People are going to say things about you that are untrue. There is someone (a member) spreads lies about me right now. Big deal. Knowing when to make your point, then walk away from the situation is key. The more you argue and bicker, the more you look like a two-year-old in need of a nap.

Certainly, different people have different ways of communicating, and it is not my place to tell you or anyone else to "grow up"…but you may want to consider it, in any case.

[Mark Mentzer]

I'm sorry Vernon. You're right you did not ask me to re-post the discussion. I misstated the fact that you said you were disappointed that you can't put more responses there. But, you did inspire me to reopen it.

[Tina]

It is better to deserve honors and not have them than to have them and not deserve them.
--Mark Twain (Samuel Clemens)

A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing.
--George Bernard Shaw

Dignity does not consist in possessing honors, but in deserving them.
--Aristotle

Of all the properties which belong to honorable men, not one is so highly prized as that of character.
--Henry Clay

I think the purpose of life is to be useful, to be responsible, to be honorable, to be compassionate. It is, after all, to matter: to count, to stand for something, to have made some difference that you lived at all.
--Leo C. Rosten

[Just-a-Writer]

Tina!!! So good to see you! =D I'm afraid I've traded in my TBD addiction for a farm on Facebook! lol I don't seem to be able to follow discussions as well here as I could there.

[Just-a-Writer]

Could this discussion continue on as it was in the first few pages? I found it to be very informative, and would even like to copy it for my kids for social studies. Of course, they can't site "TBD" as a source, but it's good information to start with when they hit the search engines. ;-)

I know very little about the conflict that has occurred here, especially given the missing posts, but at this point I'm not sure I want to know. From my time at TBD I think the world of Cindy, but I also do Jac, Paci, Mark, and Vernon. Anybody I didn't name, don't take offense, it was mainly because you didn't appear to be in this conflict. Hell, I usually make it pretty clear when I don't like somebody, huh? lol

But from what I've seen (as I said, it was very little) I would guess there was quite a bit of skimming, responding in anger, and partially understood posts. It's over now.

Mark, PLEASE don't pull this post, it is chock full of useful historic information.

Barry, we've never met, but you're wife is a doll. I think the world of her. But that aside, I think if you actually took this thread, or what remains of it at any rate, to any type of lawyer or regulatory official they would most likely look at you curiously and ask you want you expected them to do with it. I can respect your desire to defend your wife, but more posturing won't help anything here. Please give her my love.

Now, onward!

[Mark Mentzer]

Great idea Pacis why don't you start a new thread?

[Julie Hershey]

Are we re-opened here, Mark? Or should I wait for a new thread (or begin one, or better yet hope someone else does)?

[Mark Mentzer]

Hi Julie, I reopened the discussion because you and some other people showed an interest. Please feel free to put in your two cents.

[Julie Hershey]

Thanks Mark and Jacquin. I've hopped over to Pacisdream's discussion, but disappointed to see that some of the posts here have been removed since I started going through them all. Too bad - this is a hot topic in the liberal community, apparently, but I hope we haven't lost so much faith in each other that a civil online discussion is not possible.

[alienken]

Was Palistine an actual country, with actual leaders? I have always heard that there never was a Palisine country just a general area.
Israel is not a "terrorist" state. They are a peaceful people who are surrunded by people who want to completly wipe them out.
Does the Palistinian people actually want a Palisine? One U.S. Pres. after another tries to set it up and fails. Why is there opposition to it?

[Grace Linda]

Alienken, a lot of your questions are answered within this thread, but once upon a time map makers used to write Palestine across that part of the world. It is a two way street over there, both parties have turned their backs on resolving things at different time for different reasons.

[Mark Mentzer]

Thank you Wanda. It's so obvious that Israel is a hawkish state that I don't see why everybody doesn't see it. As a Jew I know a lot of so called liberal Jews who support Israel in all their hate and fear mongering. It's a tough subject to talk about but dammit I see the reality of it.