Israel: Terrorist State or Holy Land? A contriversial topic to say the least. Sorry if I've offended anyone but these are my views.

[Mark Mentzer]

I consider myself somewhat of a strange bird. I'm a Jew who feels that the land called Israel (previously called Palestine) has natives who have brown skin. In 1948 England gave Israel to the European Jews who suffered atrocities under the Nazi regime. That was a nice thing to do but what about the natives of the land? After WWII there was a rapid disappearance of French and British influence throughout the Arab world, as the rapid eclipse of the old imperial powers transformed the politics not only of Asia but of the Middle East and Africa as well. The mandated territories granted by the League of Nations after World War I were granted independence. These included Syria and Jordan in 1946 and Lebanon in 1943. The mandate in Palestine was liquidated, and a Jewish homeland -- promised after World War I but never granted -- was created in 1948: the State of Israel.

Israel has since been, in my opinion, a war mongering state and has been the cause of much unrest in the area. Since I find the bible to be a book filled with fables particularly the Old Testament, I don't recognize the "Biblical Right" to this land.

I feel that Israel has no right to this land as I see it as ethnic cleansing plain and simple. They should have the land however, they've now been there a long time so I support Obama's decision to set a fair border and recognize two states.

What's your feelings on the subject?

[Mark Mentzer]

Jews yes. Europeans no. The Jews who lived there thousands of years ago had brown skin. Those Jews would be welcome by the Palestinians. My point is strictly a sociological one.

And, of course, I feel for the European Jews who flocked there in the late 40s to flee Nazi oppression. But they are the reason for much of the violence that goes on in the Middle East they are partly responsible for the terror that goes on there by being right winged fear and war mongering terrorists themselves. If it was any other Middle East country the USA would have bombed their asses long long ago. It's a tit-for-tat between Israel and most of the other Middle East countries because that part of the world has the same issue I raise here.

[Mark Mentzer]

By the way Lynda. What are you doing up so late? I'm a well known insomniac, what's your excuse?

[cyndromeda]

i agree mark. the whole idea that there is any promised land for any group of people is fairly ludicrous, imho. it is unfortunate that throughout history, people have been displaced by invaders, but it is just that - history. if they should have that land, i guess we better give this land back to the native americans. no ancient "holy" book should be mandating who lives where.
israel has indeed been a war mongering state. i do not understand how people can sit back and support this based on the bible when such blatant human rights violations are being committed against the palestenians.

[Mark Mentzer]

You raise an excellent point. If Israel has a biblical right to the land called Israel then the Native Americans have a humanitarian right to their land. I know the slaughter of the Native Americans happened many centuries ago but, as an American, I feel guilty about it. The Europeans were infamous for wiping out cultures.

[Mark Mentzer]

Being a NY Jew I assumed that I was alone in these thoughts. A very lonely feeling. But when I ran this discussion on the old TBD I received a lot of responses that showed me other people were having these thoughts. It's funny how nobody engages in this talk in mixed company. I tried and was ostracized.

[Mark Mentzer]

I'm sorry you're offended Lynda. My intentions were not to do so. You know I love you.

Of course, the rest of the Middle East is not innocent.

I'm just trying to point out that Israel as we know it was born out of all the things we as liberals hate which as pointed out above is the theft of the land of an indigenous people. Yes, the Israelis face atrocities every day but an eye for an eye is old school. I'd rather believe in turn the other cheek. I just feel that European people have no holds on the land of the indigenous brown-skinned peoples. Suicide bombers are evil no matter what side of the fence they come from. Killing children should bring the death penalty in my mind. However, in talking about suicide bombers one sides terrorist is the other sides hero. A lot of atrocities were created with good intentions. I did not call Israel a terrorist nation in the title there is a question mark. I do, however feel that they have committed acts of violence themselves. They are very stubborn and right winged and yes they are war and fear mongering.

You might feel that they have the right to fight back against people who feel that their land was stolen. I feel, like the native Americans they have the right to fight for their land. But, like I said, I think they're both wrong and, at this point Israel should be recognized as a state as should Palenstine. They need a fair border and the settlements must stop. I support Obama on this. And, of course I agree with you about Fatah and Arafat but, in their mind, they're simply defending the land they settled for thousands of years but they should not do this in acts of terrorism or fear or war. Sociologically the land should be inhabited by brown skinned Arabic peoples not Europeans be they Jews, Christians or Muslims. I believe that if the Israelis and the Palestinians follow Obama's plan there will finally be peace in the middle east and we'll be done with this conversation.

[Grace Linda]

I feel the Jews were used and continue to be used as a military strategy. While they claim historical rights, the powers that put them there just nod and throw money and weapons at them to keep an "enemy" that they created at bay, while they have found way to profit as much as possible from oil.

The scariest part are the Christians that support Israel only because they want the world to come to an end so their "Lilly" white jesus will save them. oh sorry, that just slipped out.

[Mark Mentzer]

Thank you for this Lynda. I learned a lot.

[Mark Mentzer]

You raise a good point here Grace Linda. And, I agree with you about the statement of the "Lilly" white Jesus. The paintings of a white guy as Jesus are offensive to my intellect.

[cyndromeda]

yes, it is high time we evolved beyond this. i don't believe in reparations for wrongs against ancestors. again, i am sorry for the past, but the past is just that. we need to work toward a future for all of us. so lynda, how do you feel about the people that were pushed out of their homes so the jews could move back in? they had nothing to do with what happened in history, but they lost their homes. did two wrongs make a right? would you be willing to give up your home for a native american? it was far more recent after all, and we did displace them.

[cyndromeda]

no lynda, you misunderstand. it's not that nobody wants the jews, and it is ludicrous that you would try to say that in this group of people. i think ALL people are equal. i just don't see how this has improved the state of things. we are all one people that need to move to the future. like i said, i hate the past, and am sorry for it, but it can't be changed. we need to move forward and support each other. also, you never said how you felt about the palestinians being pushed out of their homes. is that different?

[Mark Mentzer]

I think I'll move to a Hobbit Hole. Heh heh.