TBD on Ning
Birthers — Is Barack Obama a citizen?
Limbaugh (or as Ed Schulz calls him "The Drugster") on Birthers
Limbaugh: "Barack Obama has yet to have to prove he's a citizen. All he'd have to do is show a birth certificate"
July 20, 2009 2:36 pm ET
From the July 20 broadcast of the Rush Limbaugh Show:
From the Daily Koz Will the birthers become domestic terrorists? by arcticshadow
Mon Jul 20, 2009 at 02:27:39 PM PDT
The birther craziness started before the election, but it was a mild and small craziness, probably because they were so confident they would never lose their grasp over America. Once it became apparent that they did on 11/4/08, the craziness started increasing little by little, until it is now at this point:
* arcticshadow's diary :: ::
The birthers have a small but very loud group of followers. However, their numbers are likely greater than that of most RW terrorism groups. These people have shown a complete inability to listen to reason, facts, proof, evidence, etc. They just get more rabid, day after day, because they can't stand that they no longer have any power in the government (and a black man with a Muslim name does, at that).
I diaried about the birthers a lot months ago, and I thought it was pretty funny, because it was. But that was in the early stages of craziness, something you can laugh at. It's still kind of funny now, but it's starting to enter into scary territory when you see things like that video. The birthers are like sheep without brains -- all they need is a leader to call them to take up arms and "take America back", and there will be a huge new right wing extremist terrorist group. Something needs to be done about them.
Granted, nothing probably can be done. They're still in their right of free speech, and the Republican Party has become so crazy that they don't publically denounce these wingnuts...in fact, they secretly fan the fire by secretly co-sponsoring obscure "birth certificate" bills and having Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh talk about more birther stories.
This is likely their response to Obama winning so they don't have to accept it (they can't say he stole the election, after all). Liberals did the same thing with Bush, and of course the accusations against him were much more valid and not batshit crazy, they're still comparable. The difference is most liberals aren't violent. The crazy right wing? I wouldn't put it past any of them to put our President, Democratic Party representatives and normal citizens in danger. Most of the right wing murderers lately have been birthers. Coincidence? I think not.
Also from the Daily Koz Over Coffee Thoughts on Birthers by whisperwolf
Mon Jul 20, 2009 at 03:52:55 PM PDT
In 2005 when I finalized my emigration from the United Kingdom, one of the documents I had to supply was a formal birth certificate or certified copy thereof.
Not having particularly organized parents, we didn't have my original birth certificate. Somewhere in the many moves the family had made it had been lost. So I made the journey back to the parish of my birth, paid a fee, proved who I was and obtained a certified copy.
Seeing arcticshadow's diary about Birthers reminded me of a major hole in the entire conspiracy theory.
You don't have to have the original certificate to be a citizen.
* whisperwolf's diary :: ::
Whipped up by various Fox News and Conservative Blogs into a frenzy about Obama's Birth Certificate, many of these particular conspiracy theorists - Birthers, as they are known - have a single central argument.
Because Obama has never produced his original birth certificate there's no absolute proof that he's a US citizen, and thereby eligible to be president.
What they are ignoring, of course, is that Obama might be in the situation I was - that he simply doesn't have his original birth certificate. I wonder how many of the population don't have their absolutely original birth certificate. But all that is irrelevant. You don't have to be in actual possession of your original birth certificate to be a legitimate citizen.
One reason the woman in the video clip was saying she thought the certificate Obama had showed was a fake, was that it didn't have a raised seal on it the way her original did. This is actually innacurate, according to bipartisan group factcheck.org.
But the key to the argument is those two words: Certified Copy - which is what numerous organizations have seen of Obama's. And a certified copy is just that - a copy of the original record held (which isn't in certificate form, but in a list of births, deaths and marriages that day) by the parish of the person concerned, that confirms the original record exists and is accurate. That's all the law requires.
When you start to pin Birthers down on this, then they start to digress into other arguments. Another argument I've heard goes along the lines of "Obama didn't have two American Citizens as parents, therefore he's not really a citizen". I've actually seen this argument used on right wing blogs. Again, it's fundamentally flawed.
From Wikipedia:
In August 2008, the Rocky Mountain News ran an online article asserting that Obama is both a US and a Kenyan citizen. This turned out to be incorrect. Although the paper published an apology for the mistake, it provided more fuel for online rumors about Obama's eligibility for the presidency. FactCheck noted that Obama had indeed been a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies by virtue of his descent from a Kenyan father at a time when Kenya was a British colony. However, Kenya's constitution prohibits dual citizenship in adulthood. Obama had therefore automatically lost his Kenyan citizenship at age 21, in 1982, by failing to formally renounce any non-Kenyan citizenship and swear an oath of allegiance to Kenya.
Birthers claim - without any evidence - that purely because Obama could technically be a dual-citizen at birth, that means that he actually went with the other countries citizenship in adulthood, a claim that is quite plainly false. The two weaknesses in this argument rapidly become apparent: First, by admitting his dual citizenship, they are actually admitting that part of that citizenship is legitimately American, and secondly Kenyan law requires that to keep your citizenship you MUST take your oath of allegiance to Kenya by your twenty first birthday, and MUST renounce all other citizenships at the time you take your oath of allegiance. Since Obama has never taken the oath of allegiance to Kenya, that effectively means he's been stripped of his Kenyan citizenship - half of the dual citizenship - leaving just the other half valid, which, as I've already pointed out, is US citizenship.
Ultimately, Birthers - like Teabaggers - will never accept their view is wrong. In their minds, it's case closed that Obama's not a US citizen - no amount of evidence to the contrary will make them change their minds.
But the whole issue of Obama's birth has been settled, long ago, and no amount of complaining will change that. Barack Obama was born on August 4, 1961 in Honolulu, in the state of Hawaii. He's a US citizen. He has been from the day he was born. This has been certified by those in public office whose job it is to certify such things. The rest, as they say, is history.
Limbaugh: "Barack Obama has yet to have to prove he's a citizen. All he'd have to do is show a birth certificate"
July 20, 2009 2:36 pm ET
From the July 20 broadcast of the Rush Limbaugh Show:
From the Daily Koz Will the birthers become domestic terrorists? by arcticshadow
Mon Jul 20, 2009 at 02:27:39 PM PDT
The birther craziness started before the election, but it was a mild and small craziness, probably because they were so confident they would never lose their grasp over America. Once it became apparent that they did on 11/4/08, the craziness started increasing little by little, until it is now at this point:
* arcticshadow's diary :: ::
The birthers have a small but very loud group of followers. However, their numbers are likely greater than that of most RW terrorism groups. These people have shown a complete inability to listen to reason, facts, proof, evidence, etc. They just get more rabid, day after day, because they can't stand that they no longer have any power in the government (and a black man with a Muslim name does, at that).
I diaried about the birthers a lot months ago, and I thought it was pretty funny, because it was. But that was in the early stages of craziness, something you can laugh at. It's still kind of funny now, but it's starting to enter into scary territory when you see things like that video. The birthers are like sheep without brains -- all they need is a leader to call them to take up arms and "take America back", and there will be a huge new right wing extremist terrorist group. Something needs to be done about them.
Granted, nothing probably can be done. They're still in their right of free speech, and the Republican Party has become so crazy that they don't publically denounce these wingnuts...in fact, they secretly fan the fire by secretly co-sponsoring obscure "birth certificate" bills and having Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh talk about more birther stories.
This is likely their response to Obama winning so they don't have to accept it (they can't say he stole the election, after all). Liberals did the same thing with Bush, and of course the accusations against him were much more valid and not batshit crazy, they're still comparable. The difference is most liberals aren't violent. The crazy right wing? I wouldn't put it past any of them to put our President, Democratic Party representatives and normal citizens in danger. Most of the right wing murderers lately have been birthers. Coincidence? I think not.
Also from the Daily Koz Over Coffee Thoughts on Birthers by whisperwolf
Mon Jul 20, 2009 at 03:52:55 PM PDT
In 2005 when I finalized my emigration from the United Kingdom, one of the documents I had to supply was a formal birth certificate or certified copy thereof.
Not having particularly organized parents, we didn't have my original birth certificate. Somewhere in the many moves the family had made it had been lost. So I made the journey back to the parish of my birth, paid a fee, proved who I was and obtained a certified copy.
Seeing arcticshadow's diary about Birthers reminded me of a major hole in the entire conspiracy theory.
You don't have to have the original certificate to be a citizen.
* whisperwolf's diary :: ::
Whipped up by various Fox News and Conservative Blogs into a frenzy about Obama's Birth Certificate, many of these particular conspiracy theorists - Birthers, as they are known - have a single central argument.
Because Obama has never produced his original birth certificate there's no absolute proof that he's a US citizen, and thereby eligible to be president.
What they are ignoring, of course, is that Obama might be in the situation I was - that he simply doesn't have his original birth certificate. I wonder how many of the population don't have their absolutely original birth certificate. But all that is irrelevant. You don't have to be in actual possession of your original birth certificate to be a legitimate citizen.
One reason the woman in the video clip was saying she thought the certificate Obama had showed was a fake, was that it didn't have a raised seal on it the way her original did. This is actually innacurate, according to bipartisan group factcheck.org.
But the key to the argument is those two words: Certified Copy - which is what numerous organizations have seen of Obama's. And a certified copy is just that - a copy of the original record held (which isn't in certificate form, but in a list of births, deaths and marriages that day) by the parish of the person concerned, that confirms the original record exists and is accurate. That's all the law requires.
When you start to pin Birthers down on this, then they start to digress into other arguments. Another argument I've heard goes along the lines of "Obama didn't have two American Citizens as parents, therefore he's not really a citizen". I've actually seen this argument used on right wing blogs. Again, it's fundamentally flawed.
From Wikipedia:
In August 2008, the Rocky Mountain News ran an online article asserting that Obama is both a US and a Kenyan citizen. This turned out to be incorrect. Although the paper published an apology for the mistake, it provided more fuel for online rumors about Obama's eligibility for the presidency. FactCheck noted that Obama had indeed been a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies by virtue of his descent from a Kenyan father at a time when Kenya was a British colony. However, Kenya's constitution prohibits dual citizenship in adulthood. Obama had therefore automatically lost his Kenyan citizenship at age 21, in 1982, by failing to formally renounce any non-Kenyan citizenship and swear an oath of allegiance to Kenya.
Birthers claim - without any evidence - that purely because Obama could technically be a dual-citizen at birth, that means that he actually went with the other countries citizenship in adulthood, a claim that is quite plainly false. The two weaknesses in this argument rapidly become apparent: First, by admitting his dual citizenship, they are actually admitting that part of that citizenship is legitimately American, and secondly Kenyan law requires that to keep your citizenship you MUST take your oath of allegiance to Kenya by your twenty first birthday, and MUST renounce all other citizenships at the time you take your oath of allegiance. Since Obama has never taken the oath of allegiance to Kenya, that effectively means he's been stripped of his Kenyan citizenship - half of the dual citizenship - leaving just the other half valid, which, as I've already pointed out, is US citizenship.
Ultimately, Birthers - like Teabaggers - will never accept their view is wrong. In their minds, it's case closed that Obama's not a US citizen - no amount of evidence to the contrary will make them change their minds.
But the whole issue of Obama's birth has been settled, long ago, and no amount of complaining will change that. Barack Obama was born on August 4, 1961 in Honolulu, in the state of Hawaii. He's a US citizen. He has been from the day he was born. This has been certified by those in public office whose job it is to certify such things. The rest, as they say, is history.
Views: 26
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Mark Mentzer on
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Wanda, Remember what Wanda Sykes said. "If he does good I'll brag about that fine black man. But, if he fucks up I'll be saying. Hey, who put this white man in as president?"
Did you know that heroin, cocaine, morphine and marijuana was made illegal based on campaigns targeting white folks convincing them that the black men were going to rape our women. These campaigns were driven by fear. These birthers thrive on fear. -
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Permalink Reply by Boothby171 on
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Wanda,
"We" said the same thing about Bush and his evil plans in Iraq.... -
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Permalink Reply by Madhatterat60 on
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If I'm not mistaking, the "Democrat" who filed the suit is a whacko who has filed so many frivolous suits that he is now banned from the Federal District Court from filing ANY suit.
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Permalink Reply by Timothy Platt on
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Typcial conservative rhetoric,
If they cannot defeat the message, they slander the messenger. So many experts have certified Obama's citizenship so many times, but the conservatives continue to slander in an attempt to undermine Obama's credibility.
It does not matter what citizenship the parent had, anyone born on American soil is a natural born citizen of the US. That is the underlying controversey with so many illegal aliens. They give birth here to legal citizens; so what do you do with the illegal parent? You cannot very well deny the citizen the right to live here; and you cannot deny parents the right to raise their own children.
It is funny how everyone acknowledges the American citizenship standard in the illegal alien debate, but they conveniently change the standard in Obama's case. -
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Permalink Reply by R. Scott White on
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"Media Matters in America" takes aim at the birthers here: (Particularly Lou Dobbs):
http://mediamatters.org/columns/200907230005 -
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Permalink Reply by Just-a-Writer on
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I thought "birthers" were just a prime example of the lowered education level in America. I mean, doesn't it take a complete idiot to think that somebody could make it to the presidency with a fake birth certificate?
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Why Rush....how very interesting. You've yet to prove to me that you're a human being, and not some low life bottom dwelling scum sucker.
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