TBD on Ning
Birthers — Is Barack Obama a citizen?
Limbaugh (or as Ed Schulz calls him "The Drugster") on Birthers
Limbaugh: "Barack Obama has yet to have to prove he's a citizen. All he'd have to do is show a birth certificate"
July 20, 2009 2:36 pm ET
From the July 20 broadcast of the Rush Limbaugh Show:
From the Daily Koz Will the birthers become domestic terrorists? by arcticshadow
Mon Jul 20, 2009 at 02:27:39 PM PDT
The birther craziness started before the election, but it was a mild and small craziness, probably because they were so confident they would never lose their grasp over America. Once it became apparent that they did on 11/4/08, the craziness started increasing little by little, until it is now at this point:
* arcticshadow's diary :: ::
The birthers have a small but very loud group of followers. However, their numbers are likely greater than that of most RW terrorism groups. These people have shown a complete inability to listen to reason, facts, proof, evidence, etc. They just get more rabid, day after day, because they can't stand that they no longer have any power in the government (and a black man with a Muslim name does, at that).
I diaried about the birthers a lot months ago, and I thought it was pretty funny, because it was. But that was in the early stages of craziness, something you can laugh at. It's still kind of funny now, but it's starting to enter into scary territory when you see things like that video. The birthers are like sheep without brains -- all they need is a leader to call them to take up arms and "take America back", and there will be a huge new right wing extremist terrorist group. Something needs to be done about them.
Granted, nothing probably can be done. They're still in their right of free speech, and the Republican Party has become so crazy that they don't publically denounce these wingnuts...in fact, they secretly fan the fire by secretly co-sponsoring obscure "birth certificate" bills and having Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh talk about more birther stories.
This is likely their response to Obama winning so they don't have to accept it (they can't say he stole the election, after all). Liberals did the same thing with Bush, and of course the accusations against him were much more valid and not batshit crazy, they're still comparable. The difference is most liberals aren't violent. The crazy right wing? I wouldn't put it past any of them to put our President, Democratic Party representatives and normal citizens in danger. Most of the right wing murderers lately have been birthers. Coincidence? I think not.
Also from the Daily Koz Over Coffee Thoughts on Birthers by whisperwolf
Mon Jul 20, 2009 at 03:52:55 PM PDT
In 2005 when I finalized my emigration from the United Kingdom, one of the documents I had to supply was a formal birth certificate or certified copy thereof.
Not having particularly organized parents, we didn't have my original birth certificate. Somewhere in the many moves the family had made it had been lost. So I made the journey back to the parish of my birth, paid a fee, proved who I was and obtained a certified copy.
Seeing arcticshadow's diary about Birthers reminded me of a major hole in the entire conspiracy theory.
You don't have to have the original certificate to be a citizen.
* whisperwolf's diary :: ::
Whipped up by various Fox News and Conservative Blogs into a frenzy about Obama's Birth Certificate, many of these particular conspiracy theorists - Birthers, as they are known - have a single central argument.
Because Obama has never produced his original birth certificate there's no absolute proof that he's a US citizen, and thereby eligible to be president.
What they are ignoring, of course, is that Obama might be in the situation I was - that he simply doesn't have his original birth certificate. I wonder how many of the population don't have their absolutely original birth certificate. But all that is irrelevant. You don't have to be in actual possession of your original birth certificate to be a legitimate citizen.
One reason the woman in the video clip was saying she thought the certificate Obama had showed was a fake, was that it didn't have a raised seal on it the way her original did. This is actually innacurate, according to bipartisan group factcheck.org.
But the key to the argument is those two words: Certified Copy - which is what numerous organizations have seen of Obama's. And a certified copy is just that - a copy of the original record held (which isn't in certificate form, but in a list of births, deaths and marriages that day) by the parish of the person concerned, that confirms the original record exists and is accurate. That's all the law requires.
When you start to pin Birthers down on this, then they start to digress into other arguments. Another argument I've heard goes along the lines of "Obama didn't have two American Citizens as parents, therefore he's not really a citizen". I've actually seen this argument used on right wing blogs. Again, it's fundamentally flawed.
From Wikipedia:
In August 2008, the Rocky Mountain News ran an online article asserting that Obama is both a US and a Kenyan citizen. This turned out to be incorrect. Although the paper published an apology for the mistake, it provided more fuel for online rumors about Obama's eligibility for the presidency. FactCheck noted that Obama had indeed been a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies by virtue of his descent from a Kenyan father at a time when Kenya was a British colony. However, Kenya's constitution prohibits dual citizenship in adulthood. Obama had therefore automatically lost his Kenyan citizenship at age 21, in 1982, by failing to formally renounce any non-Kenyan citizenship and swear an oath of allegiance to Kenya.
Birthers claim - without any evidence - that purely because Obama could technically be a dual-citizen at birth, that means that he actually went with the other countries citizenship in adulthood, a claim that is quite plainly false. The two weaknesses in this argument rapidly become apparent: First, by admitting his dual citizenship, they are actually admitting that part of that citizenship is legitimately American, and secondly Kenyan law requires that to keep your citizenship you MUST take your oath of allegiance to Kenya by your twenty first birthday, and MUST renounce all other citizenships at the time you take your oath of allegiance. Since Obama has never taken the oath of allegiance to Kenya, that effectively means he's been stripped of his Kenyan citizenship - half of the dual citizenship - leaving just the other half valid, which, as I've already pointed out, is US citizenship.
Ultimately, Birthers - like Teabaggers - will never accept their view is wrong. In their minds, it's case closed that Obama's not a US citizen - no amount of evidence to the contrary will make them change their minds.
But the whole issue of Obama's birth has been settled, long ago, and no amount of complaining will change that. Barack Obama was born on August 4, 1961 in Honolulu, in the state of Hawaii. He's a US citizen. He has been from the day he was born. This has been certified by those in public office whose job it is to certify such things. The rest, as they say, is history.
Limbaugh: "Barack Obama has yet to have to prove he's a citizen. All he'd have to do is show a birth certificate"
July 20, 2009 2:36 pm ET
From the July 20 broadcast of the Rush Limbaugh Show:
From the Daily Koz Will the birthers become domestic terrorists? by arcticshadow
Mon Jul 20, 2009 at 02:27:39 PM PDT
The birther craziness started before the election, but it was a mild and small craziness, probably because they were so confident they would never lose their grasp over America. Once it became apparent that they did on 11/4/08, the craziness started increasing little by little, until it is now at this point:
* arcticshadow's diary :: ::
The birthers have a small but very loud group of followers. However, their numbers are likely greater than that of most RW terrorism groups. These people have shown a complete inability to listen to reason, facts, proof, evidence, etc. They just get more rabid, day after day, because they can't stand that they no longer have any power in the government (and a black man with a Muslim name does, at that).
I diaried about the birthers a lot months ago, and I thought it was pretty funny, because it was. But that was in the early stages of craziness, something you can laugh at. It's still kind of funny now, but it's starting to enter into scary territory when you see things like that video. The birthers are like sheep without brains -- all they need is a leader to call them to take up arms and "take America back", and there will be a huge new right wing extremist terrorist group. Something needs to be done about them.
Granted, nothing probably can be done. They're still in their right of free speech, and the Republican Party has become so crazy that they don't publically denounce these wingnuts...in fact, they secretly fan the fire by secretly co-sponsoring obscure "birth certificate" bills and having Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh talk about more birther stories.
This is likely their response to Obama winning so they don't have to accept it (they can't say he stole the election, after all). Liberals did the same thing with Bush, and of course the accusations against him were much more valid and not batshit crazy, they're still comparable. The difference is most liberals aren't violent. The crazy right wing? I wouldn't put it past any of them to put our President, Democratic Party representatives and normal citizens in danger. Most of the right wing murderers lately have been birthers. Coincidence? I think not.
Also from the Daily Koz Over Coffee Thoughts on Birthers by whisperwolf
Mon Jul 20, 2009 at 03:52:55 PM PDT
In 2005 when I finalized my emigration from the United Kingdom, one of the documents I had to supply was a formal birth certificate or certified copy thereof.
Not having particularly organized parents, we didn't have my original birth certificate. Somewhere in the many moves the family had made it had been lost. So I made the journey back to the parish of my birth, paid a fee, proved who I was and obtained a certified copy.
Seeing arcticshadow's diary about Birthers reminded me of a major hole in the entire conspiracy theory.
You don't have to have the original certificate to be a citizen.
* whisperwolf's diary :: ::
Whipped up by various Fox News and Conservative Blogs into a frenzy about Obama's Birth Certificate, many of these particular conspiracy theorists - Birthers, as they are known - have a single central argument.
Because Obama has never produced his original birth certificate there's no absolute proof that he's a US citizen, and thereby eligible to be president.
What they are ignoring, of course, is that Obama might be in the situation I was - that he simply doesn't have his original birth certificate. I wonder how many of the population don't have their absolutely original birth certificate. But all that is irrelevant. You don't have to be in actual possession of your original birth certificate to be a legitimate citizen.
One reason the woman in the video clip was saying she thought the certificate Obama had showed was a fake, was that it didn't have a raised seal on it the way her original did. This is actually innacurate, according to bipartisan group factcheck.org.
But the key to the argument is those two words: Certified Copy - which is what numerous organizations have seen of Obama's. And a certified copy is just that - a copy of the original record held (which isn't in certificate form, but in a list of births, deaths and marriages that day) by the parish of the person concerned, that confirms the original record exists and is accurate. That's all the law requires.
When you start to pin Birthers down on this, then they start to digress into other arguments. Another argument I've heard goes along the lines of "Obama didn't have two American Citizens as parents, therefore he's not really a citizen". I've actually seen this argument used on right wing blogs. Again, it's fundamentally flawed.
From Wikipedia:
In August 2008, the Rocky Mountain News ran an online article asserting that Obama is both a US and a Kenyan citizen. This turned out to be incorrect. Although the paper published an apology for the mistake, it provided more fuel for online rumors about Obama's eligibility for the presidency. FactCheck noted that Obama had indeed been a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies by virtue of his descent from a Kenyan father at a time when Kenya was a British colony. However, Kenya's constitution prohibits dual citizenship in adulthood. Obama had therefore automatically lost his Kenyan citizenship at age 21, in 1982, by failing to formally renounce any non-Kenyan citizenship and swear an oath of allegiance to Kenya.
Birthers claim - without any evidence - that purely because Obama could technically be a dual-citizen at birth, that means that he actually went with the other countries citizenship in adulthood, a claim that is quite plainly false. The two weaknesses in this argument rapidly become apparent: First, by admitting his dual citizenship, they are actually admitting that part of that citizenship is legitimately American, and secondly Kenyan law requires that to keep your citizenship you MUST take your oath of allegiance to Kenya by your twenty first birthday, and MUST renounce all other citizenships at the time you take your oath of allegiance. Since Obama has never taken the oath of allegiance to Kenya, that effectively means he's been stripped of his Kenyan citizenship - half of the dual citizenship - leaving just the other half valid, which, as I've already pointed out, is US citizenship.
Ultimately, Birthers - like Teabaggers - will never accept their view is wrong. In their minds, it's case closed that Obama's not a US citizen - no amount of evidence to the contrary will make them change their minds.
But the whole issue of Obama's birth has been settled, long ago, and no amount of complaining will change that. Barack Obama was born on August 4, 1961 in Honolulu, in the state of Hawaii. He's a US citizen. He has been from the day he was born. This has been certified by those in public office whose job it is to certify such things. The rest, as they say, is history.
Views: 26
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Boothby171 on
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Funny, there's this whole Birther movement with regard to chicken-shit traitorous soldiers who are using this as an excuse to run home to their mamas with their peckers tucked between their legs. Strangely, though, all the right wing conservative small-penis overcompensators are all in favor of this, because it supports their Birther movement!
Unfortunately, one of their main mouthpieces, "www.wnd.com", which they tend to rally-round over all this, well, read for yourself:
(WND = World Net Daily)
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=73214
"However, a WND investigation has found that at least part of Berg's lawsuit* relies on discredited claims."
And:
"A separate WND investigation into Obama's certification of live birth utilizing forgery experts also found the document to be authentic. The investigation also revealed methods used by some of the bloggers to determine the document was fake involved forgeries, in that a few bloggers added text and images to the certificate scan that weren't originally there."
* A prominent Pennsylvania Democrat has sued Sen. Barack Obama, the Democratic National Committee and the Federal Election Commission, claiming that Obama is not a natural-born citizen and, therefore, is not eligible to be president of the United States.
Philip J. Berg, a former member of Pennsylvania's Democratic State Committee and former deputy attorney general of Pennsylvania, filed the lawsuit this week in U.S District Court, asking the court to declare Obama ineligible for the presidency and to prevent him from running for the position. -
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Permalink Reply by ZenDog on
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The speech of Rush L. is not free. It is in fact very, very expensive. He is undermining the Commander in Chief during a time of war. Not on any issue of merit mind you, but rather on nonsense.
How patriotic is that?
and why the fuck is it that I am absolutely convinced that to suggest Rush be SHOT will simply result in yet another liberal being shot at church . . . -
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Permalink Reply by Mark Mentzer on
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You go girl!!!!!
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Permalink Reply by James Worede on
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Don't blame Rush Limbaugh for these kinds of ephorias, he has to find a way to justify his earnings. There are so many herds who yearn to hear some kind of conspiracy theories to justfy there hate for Obama. If they don't fabricate stories like this and the Clintons' friend , V. Foster who commited suicide back in early 90s'. Limbaugh and other talking heads claim he was murdered by the Clintons for ever changing theories. I am really sorry and fear of limbaughs' and other like him listeners who believe their words like gospel. Thank god, majority of our citzens rejected them. Otherwise, we would have a civil war in our hands. Often time, thier shows is directly or indirectly incite violences. Don't look any futher for evidences, the same catagory of politicians and preachers cause for death of many women doctors. It only takes few lunatics to cause havoc.
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and why the fuck is it that I am absolutely convinced that to suggest Rush be SHOT will simply result in yet another liberal being shot at church . . .
oo I get it. It has nothing to do with me . . . Rush is just like the al Qaeda tape - only with Rush it isn't the release of material at all, it's the spike in volume that signals new violence.
And to think that all this time I thought it was my fault the shootings were taking place in church . . .
Say, do you think Rush is aware he is part of a subliminal terror network? -
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umm, as a demonstration that indeed, they are nitwits?
And perhaps it is a signal for yet another random act of violence, senseless act of murder . . . -
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Permalink Reply by Madhatterat60 on
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There are some things that really make you scratch your head in wonder. Seriously. Think back to the PRIMARIES. I want to ask these idiots...Do You Honestly think that the Clinton Machine would have let something this obvious PASS??" -
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And I think the birther thing is done by those too ashamed to admit the racism behind it.
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Permalink Reply by Westerly_2 on
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wanda, MH & all: Any chance these birthers are destined to start their own separate party? (Could we be so lucky)? Birthers? You Have to Show Me? The No Party? Out on a Limb and Loving it There?
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We can ONLY hope....let them marginalize themselves as much as possible.
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Um, isn't it a Dem who filed one of the lawsuits challenging his birth? I seem to recall that it was, that the issue was examined and tossed because it lacked merit.
That doesn't mean Hillary's people were involved, but it does create that impression.
To some degree, resurrecting the issue serves to discredit those who cling to it as a means of discrediting the President. There may be an opposite effect as well.
It reappears now as the debate on health care reform and what to do about it rages. We all recognize the system is broken. Yet on the issue the divisions in Congress are much different than they are over the nomination of Judge Sotomeyor to the Supreme Court.
It appears to me that Rush et.al. are attempting to water down the influence of the President on the issue of health care reform by creating, or resurrecting, the image of illegitimacy regarding his election to office, by doing so now it tends to attach itself to his advocacy on the issue - in the minds of those persuaded by that argument. It seems to be an attempt to undercut the grass roots support for reform.
Will there be more right wing violence as this debate continues? If so, to what degree will the words of Rush et.al. be viewed as a contributing factor?
Will Congress be able to construct a system that is equitable and efficient? Or will the greed of powerful interests result in an inherently flawed approach to the issue, undercutting the morale of those who work in the health care industry, as well as discrediting the government as a whole?
We did land on the moon. Surely we can do anything, but only if we have the will and the vision to put the right people in place to ensure we get the job done. -
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thank you, ZenDog, very thoughtful and convincing, as usual
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